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Post by theweekender on Jun 21, 2010 8:57:21 GMT -5
I still argue it's not entirely vital. Even when doing a concept album, you have to serve the song before you serve the plot. Maybe that line worked above all the others that he could have put there. Maybe the song is being sung from Gideon or Charlemange's perspective and Holly is cheating on one of them with the other, whoever you prefer her to be with. But with trying to make it sound good, those were the lines he wrote. It may be confusing when it comes to the overall plot, but they do sound good together. In songwriting that is the ultimate key. Sounding good.
And I'm not attacking you. I'm fact, I feel like I'm doing well contributing to the thread at hand. This is about trying to link the songs and my response is that a lot of songs can't be linked together.
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five
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Post by five on Jun 21, 2010 10:20:00 GMT -5
Like maybe but except for that line it's SUCH a Holly song. Actually just as I was typing this something clicked. Like fuckin boom got it, fits with the thematic elements of the song and the chronology of the album. Holly was a hoodrat, but who would HER little hoodrat friend be? That line is Gideon stabbing Charlemagne. It was confusing at first but I got it, I think that's my issue here. I was taking 'gettin with' to be sexual but it ain't, in this song. What we can tell already is that Holly is with Gideon throughout Separation Sunday, something devastating happens (which I assumed was Gideon stabbing Charlemagne again) which forces her to reconsider the choices she's made and the company she's kept (Crucifixion cruise), and she eventually is redeemed (How a Resurrection Really Feels). There's a reference to Holly betraying Charlemagne at the end of Don't Let Me Explode, and the line 'Judas went up and kissed him,' in Chicago Seemed Tired, is clarified in Both Crosses to be a reference to Holly's betrayal, but in SS we never see the fight itself.... except right there. She's Holly, He's Gideon, that's been clear. 'The night she got born again' is gonna be a reference to the last time she got high, validated by Stevie Nix (she got high for the first time/for the last time/down by the banks of the river). 'He was gettin with her litte hoodrat friend,' I'm completely convinced, is the fight between Gideon and Charlemagne. It follows the theme of the lyrics of the song, which are all about death and falling apart, the delivery gives it an overtone of violence, the change in the music and the setup to the last lines... fuck it's perfect. It even works thematically with Craig's work as a whole - listen to Citrus again, it's fucking perfect that it's the violence, rather than sex/infedelity, that causes the crisis in Holly's life at this point. I love this band lol |
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five
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Post by five on Jun 21, 2010 10:21:13 GMT -5
a lot of songs can't be linked together. yeah true - there's a bunch I didn't even try for and there's a bunch I shoehorned in a little bit. Separation Sunday is all plot though, each and every song |
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Post by wickedstrict on Jun 21, 2010 10:56:42 GMT -5
Weekender- I disagree with your original premise, that the songs don't have to be this big plot, but rather just songs about life, some of which have these characters in them. I think it's pretty clear that the songs work on a few different levels, and that's what is so great about them. It's not an "either/or" decision. The sound of the songs can strike you in different ways depending on your mood, and lines or verses can be isolated to have whatever meaning to each individual listener that the person wants it to mean at that time, just like all good music. But what's so brilliant here, is at the same time Craig is telling this linear story, spitting out pieces of it scattershot throughout many songs. It's then up to the listener (and five gets all the credit here, as well as the author of the post I linked to) to put those pieces together and get the story.
Five- I took "getting with" to also be a sexual reference, and couldn't reconcile who Charlemagne was sleeping with while Holly was getting born again. Before reading your post and the other post and really starting to think about the story, I had thought that the reason Holly left Charlemagne was because he cheated on her instead of getting on board with religion. Maybe you're right that the line in Multitude is Gideon's attack on Charlemagne, but I'm not so sure. Why would Craig suddenly refer to Charlemagne as the "little hoodrat friend," when that is exactly the description (and title of the song) describing Holly earlier on Separation? Maybe it's the reverse of Your Little Hoodrat Friend, with Charlemagne now being the hoodrat, and the sex being replaced by violence? That would be brilliant on Craig's part, but I'm not wholly convinced.
Totally different thought about your timeline versus the post I linked to: I think you have Gideon and Charlemagne mixed up in parts of your timeline. I hadn't heard the plot-heavy bonus tracks either, but knowing that Charlemagne owed money to the drugdealer, it was he and Holly that went out on the run on Separation, not Gideon. Obviously they end up running into Gideon in Ybor City (Cattle), Holly sells out Charlemagne, and then goes with Gideon, but she was with Charlemagne for parts of Separation.
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five
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Post by five on Jun 21, 2010 11:32:57 GMT -5
Weekender- I disagree with your original premise, that the songs don't have to be this big plot, but rather just songs about life, some of which have these characters in them. I think it's pretty clear that the songs work on a few different levels, and that's what is so great about them. It's not an "either/or" decision. The sound of the songs can strike you in different ways depending on your mood, and lines or verses can be isolated to have whatever meaning to each individual listener that the person wants it to mean at that time, just like all good music. But what's so brilliant here, is at the same time Craig is telling this linear story, spitting out pieces of it scattershot throughout many songs. It's then up to the listener (and five gets all the credit here, as well as the author of the post I linked to) to put those pieces together and get the story. Five- I took "getting with" to also be a sexual reference, and couldn't reconcile who Charlemagne was sleeping with while Holly was getting born again. Before reading your post and the other post and really starting to think about the story, I had thought that the reason Holly left Charlemagne was because he cheated on her instead of getting on board with religion. Maybe you're right that the line in Multitude is Gideon's attack on Charlemagne, but I'm not so sure. Why would Craig suddenly refer to Charlemagne as the "little hoodrat friend," when that is exactly the description (and title of the song) describing Holly earlier on Separation? Maybe it's the reverse of Your Little Hoodrat Friend, with Charlemagne now being the hoodrat, and the sex being replaced by violence? That would be brilliant on Craig's part, but I'm not wholly convinced. Totally different thought about your timeline versus the post I linked to: I think you have Gideon and Charlemagne mixed up in parts of your timeline. I hadn't heard the plot-heavy bonus tracks either, but knowing that Charlemagne owed money to the drugdealer, it was he and Holly that went out on the run on Separation, not Gideon. Obviously they end up running into Gideon in Ybor City (Cattle), Holly sells out Charlemagne, and then goes with Gideon, but she was with Charlemagne for parts of Separation. Reading through his narrative, he's aware of the AKM bonus tracks but glosses over almost all the information they have. I view Charlemagne as much more innocent - the only song where he's in some really hard shit is prostitution in Charlemagne in Sweatpants. The 7k he gets beat for isn't necessarily hard drugs, the sum sounds small for meth intent to sell. More like, a couple pounds of weed? Open to debate, sure. Before I really looked into it I thought through it I thought Charlemagne was The Saviour too, but in the bonus tracks it's Gideon, not Charlemagne, whose 'Party favours were party saviours.' There's also the bits about Holly 'sucking through [Gideon's] defenses,' and a song from Charlemagne perspective bitching out Holly for leaving (I'm paraphrasing the line but 'I shoulda fucked your cousin when I had the chance'). In Separation Sunday, Holly and Charlemagne don't really interact, they had been in love but 'it's funny how true love gets troubled by still water and washed up in the Mississippi river.' If you want me to go through his timeline and defend the parts I disagree with I will, but basically my version is that Holly and Charlemagne know each other before they leave home, they're rebels and they fall in love, and head out to live their lives. Charlemagne gets busted with drugs, flushes them to save himself, and gets beat by the guys he owes money to. Holly meets Gideon (and sees his 'What Would Judas Do?' t-shirt) and hooks up with him, knowing that she has to hide Charlemagne's whereabouts from him (Killer Parties is her rehearsing her story, or telling it to one of her new friends, and she knows she has to 'say somethin vague.') Gideon's gang sells meth (the tattoos mentioned in Freddy Knuckles/Same tattoos as Gideon, you get it) and when Holly's with him, she starts using, and starts prostituting to pay for it ('she don't need it but she likes it, so she always makes that call'). She lets slip, whether deliberately or not, Charlemagne's location, and Gideon personally attacks him, causing Holly to have a personal crisis ultimately leading to Resurrection. Basically I feel like he's missing some of the important character points, and that his timeline is a little bit muddled. He has most of the important plot points down, though. edit: reading further I guess he considers Holly and Charlemagne to be in the same physical location after she gets with Gideon, and I don't. That's out biggest disagreement I think. I also tried hard to use narrative clues as to which order the songs came in, and he seems to be just putting them in whatever order he pleases  further edit: I ABSOLUTELY think that Charlemagne was beat twice, and that the references in Stay Positive are all about the second time. And Holly is absolutely not the Sophemore Accomplice, she hasn't been to college and putting her parents in the story would fuck it up thematically |
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Post by wickedstrict on Jun 21, 2010 13:30:29 GMT -5
Five- I agree with you that the other post has a lot of gaps/issues in it that your timeline doesn't. And I think it's more than obvious (as you stated) that Charlemagne was attacked twice. The first is him getting his brains bashed out down in the basement by the Cityskape Skins (but not Gideon) for losing the 7k worth of drugs, and the second time is when Gideon stabs him, and he almost dies, up in Penetration Park. I would quibble with you a little on Charlemagne's character, as I dont' really see him as innocent as much as in over his head. He's perfectly willing to deal drugs, run prostitutes between cars, and whatever else. He just doesn't have the stomach for dealing with cops banging at his door or getting into violence.
I'm not sure where you come out on this, but I read in a few posts somewhere on this board that people thought Charlemagne died from the stabbing. How can that be possible, when he's discussing the stabbing, in retrospect, in at least two songs (Yeah Sapphire and Your Little Hoodrat Friend). He no doubt gets injured badly, but he calls Sapphire saying he's not drunk but needs her to come and pick him up, and presumably take him to the hospital. It gets a little difficult to work out the timeline with Charlemagne's relationship to Sapphire if the "I got punctured" line from Hoodrat is the same attack as in Yeah Sapphire.
Lastly- I totally agree with you that discussing the lyrics makes me enjoy this music so much more. I'm "arguing" with you over the lyrics for my own enjoyment and desire to understand the story better. I hope it's the same result for you and not simply an annoyance or feeling that I'm nitpicking your previous post.
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five
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Post by five on Jun 21, 2010 15:30:53 GMT -5
No worries man. This is a friendly discussion 'Innocent' was too strong a word, I was thinking compared to Gideon. I agree with your reading. As to whether Charlemagne is really dead, I think that's intentionally fuzzy (ambiguity about death is in it right from the start, 'we got killed' in The Swish). Some people definitely think he's dead, and he 'got killed...' but he's alive. Take it as metaphorically as you're comfortable with I don't think Charlemagne is the narrator of Hoodrat, for one thing he loves Holly and wouldn't talk about her that way. I think the song is someone talking to Gideon. Charlemagne is barely in Separation, from my reading. It's Holly's album, and if they're not physically together, he can necessarily only play a bit part. Stay Positive is his album, where Holly's only present as a spectator to the fight and someone who might call in Adderall. |
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Post by wickedstrict on Jun 21, 2010 16:55:58 GMT -5
I'm open to other interpretations, but I've definitely always thought that Charlemagne was the narrator of Hoodrat. Just like the religious imagery is a marker for Holly, all the images in that song point to Charlemagne for me. It's Charlemagne that shakes in the streets, and I feel like it would also be him shaking hard and searching in a dirty storefront church. Same goes for getting punctured and having some sweet stuff stuffed into his socks. It's true that Charlemagne loved Holly, but he's talking about all this stuff happening way back when they were 17, making it seem like a long time ago, and thus before Holly's betrayal. Plus, he's lying anyway about having never slept with her, so it makes sense that he would talk her down to his current girlfriend. The last possible link for me, and this one is not certain at all, would be "Lord, I'm Discouraged." If that song is Charlemagne talking about Holly, the overall mood would fit perfectly with the line in Hoodrat that "after I get sick I just get sad." He's trying to talk shit about Holly to seem like he doesn't care, but he really still does. I previously thought the only narrators were established characters: the musician (aka Craig), Holly, Charlemagne and Gideon (Mary shows up in a couple of songs, but is never really pivotal). That thinking sort of changed with the discovery of Sapphire, and more recently Jesse, so maybe there are other characters lurking out there that have yet to be named or dealt with in a major way. If so, your feeling that Hoodrat is someone else talking to Gideon would make sense. I need to get my hands on all the b-sides so I have all the necessary information. When I get them, I might make a project out of trying to diagram each song, identify who's narrating and who they're talking to/about, and then link the references in the songs to each other to piece together the timeline (with the result probably being a piss poor version of what you've already done,  ). It'll be fun, and will make me listen to all their songs instead of always skipping certain songs (not literally Certain Songs, that one is definitely scratched into my soul). |
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Post by theweekender on Jun 21, 2010 18:22:31 GMT -5
In all honesty, I think that Sapphire and Jesse are different incarnations of Holly. For example, I highly doubt that Charlemagne or Gideon are their real names, but rather adopted names. So Sapphire could be the name that she adopts. I don't know, just grasping at straws. I also don't think that she and charlemagne were childhood friends. I think that she left her childhood friend on the scene to go with whoever's going to get her the highest (Charlemagne). I don't know. I think that even though Separation Sunday is the heart of the story, I think there's a lot of stuff that isn't specifically told and it's up to quite a bit of interpretation. Like the nature of Holly's death and resuresction, the total role that Gideon plays (Out of the main characters, we know the least about him). What characters show up where? Lot of mystery in Multitude of Casualties, like we've been discussing.
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Post by theweekender on Jun 21, 2010 18:26:15 GMT -5
a lot of songs can't be linked together. yeah true - there's a bunch I didn't even try for and there's a bunch I shoehorned in a little bit. Separation Sunday is all plot though, each and every song Absolutely Separation Sunday is all plot, every song. However, I believe that not all the lines fit together perfectly, nor do they need to. Look at other concept albums/rock operas. |
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five
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Post by five on Jun 21, 2010 18:44:20 GMT -5
I'm open to other interpretations, but I've definitely always thought that Charlemagne was the narrator of Hoodrat. Just like the religious imagery is a marker for Holly, all the images in that song point to Charlemagne for me. It's Charlemagne that shakes in the streets, and I feel like it would also be him shaking hard and searching in a dirty storefront church. Same goes for getting punctured and having some sweet stuff stuffed into his socks. It's true that Charlemagne loved Holly, but he's talking about all this stuff happening way back when they were 17, making it seem like a long time ago, and thus before Holly's betrayal. Plus, he's lying anyway about having never slept with her, so it makes sense that he would talk her down to his current girlfriend. The last possible link for me, and this one is not certain at all, would be "Lord, I'm Discouraged." If that song is Charlemagne talking about Holly, the overall mood would fit perfectly with the line in Hoodrat that "after I get sick I just get sad." He's trying to talk shit about Holly to seem like he doesn't care, but he really still does. It's not my instinct, but I can see where you're coming from. The tune has another sort of vibe to me, like a guy swearing to a friend or girlfriend he hasn't slept with their friend. The bit about 'I ain't gonna do anything sexual with you' makes me think he's not exactly lying, but that he wanted to and she wasn't into it. Also Penetration Park is in Minneapolis, Charlemagne always gets killed in Ybor City (Florida)  Yeah man, if you're interested PM me your e-mail addy and I'll send off a what.cd invite. Private torrent tracker for music, they have the HS bonus tracks along with pretty much everything else. |
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five
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Post by five on Jun 21, 2010 18:50:25 GMT -5
In all honesty, I think that Sapphire and Jesse are different incarnations of Holly. any evidence you want to point to that leads you to think that? they all act p. differently IMO. that's cool, but again, what makes you think that? I'm not saying you're wrong but if we're gonna have a fruitful discussion an assertion isn't really enough There's plenty of evidence in the text for who's where, when. me and wickedstrict don't agree 100% on what symbols are important for what characters, but we're having a discussion about what we think based on evidence from the songs. there's room for interpretation, but I want to see what you're interpreting from |
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Post by theweekender on Jun 22, 2010 1:29:44 GMT -5
The same places you are. I mean, we're all listening to the same songs, we just hear them differently. I have a preconceived notion in my head that the girl in Chips Ahoy is Holly. In Your Little Hoodrat Friend, the narrator (whoever it is) says that St. Theresa came to her in dreams. Now, St. Theresa is the patron saint of bodiliy ills, also specifically head aches, something that the girl in Chips Ahoy gets when she tells the future. So, I believe that Holly has the power to see into the future.
Both Crosses and Yeah Sapphire imply that she can also see into the future. Now one of the first rules of fiction is to never undermine your main character with a character that has similar traits to the protagonist, unless you are going for some type of counterpoint, which is not the case here. It just flows better in my head to make them the same person.
I actually agree with you about Charlemagne. I don't know why I thought that in the first place.
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five
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Post by five on Jun 22, 2010 6:20:01 GMT -5
That's actually pretty compelling. If I stop assuming the guy in Chips Ahoy! is Charlemagne, it works pretty well, honestly.
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Post by wickedstrict on Jun 22, 2010 8:28:24 GMT -5
That's actually pretty compelling. If I stop assuming the guy in Chips Ahoy! is Charlemagne, it works pretty well, honestly. The St. Theresa link is very interesting, I had never thought about that. My problem with the guy in Chips Ahoy! not being Charlemagne is that the girl in Chips Ahoy! is clearly Sapphire (whether Sapphire is an alter ego of Holly, or a totally different person), Charlemagne and Sapphire are clearly the people in Yeah Sapphire, and in The Weekenders we have the same couple from Chips Ahoy! trying to reunite. Those three songs work as a perfect arc to a relationship that seems wholly independent of Charlemagne and Holly's story. That's what makes me think Holly and Sapphire are not the same person, and Charlemagne is indeed the guy in all three songs. Also Five- I completely agree that Hoodrat is a dude telling either a friend or girlfriend that he hasn't slept with their friend. To me it has always sounded like the former, where the guy's current girlfriend is jealous/suspicious and he's trying to allay her suspicions, possibly lying and going overboard about how much distaste he has for the hoodrat chick. It feels like he's trying to convince the new girlfriend (and possibly himself) that he doesn't care for the hoodrat (lines like "your little hoodrat friend makes me sick"), but those lines are all followed by a display of either fondness or nostalgia ("but after I get sick I just get sad," or the verse about her getting him high when they were stuck up up up in Osseo, which sounds very much like a fond memory for the narrator). To weekender, this is pretty clear evidence that Charlemagne and Holly did know each other when they were 17, along with Five's example of "they met as kids..." |
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Post by theweekender on Jun 22, 2010 14:03:56 GMT -5
Yeah, I had missed that stuff before, or at least disregarded that evidence before.
As far as Chips Ahoy, Holly Sapphire and what not, I think that once Separation Sunday is over and it gets to Boys and Girls in America and Stay Positive and now Heaven is Whenever, there's a lot more room for interpretation as to what is going on and what works for me, may not work for you, which in turn may not work out for five, which also may not work out for Craig. He may picture the girl in Chips as Holly, but that doesn't make you wrong either. He may think of her as another girl who's not Sapphire or Holly, but that doesn't mean we're wrong.
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five
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Post by five on Jun 22, 2010 14:56:09 GMT -5
That's actually pretty compelling. If I stop assuming the guy in Chips Ahoy! is Charlemagne, it works pretty well, honestly. The St. Theresa link is very interesting, I had never thought about that. My problem with the guy in Chips Ahoy! not being Charlemagne is that the girl in Chips Ahoy! is clearly Sapphire (whether Sapphire is an alter ego of Holly, or a totally different person), Charlemagne and Sapphire are clearly the people in Yeah Sapphire, and in The Weekenders we have the Pp couple from Chips Ahoy! trying to reunite. Those three songs work as a perfect arc to a relationship that seems wholly independent of Charlemagne and Holly's story. That's what makes me think Holly and Sapphire are not the same person, and Charlemagne is indeed the guy in all three songs. Also Five- I completely agree that Hoodrat is a dude telling either a friend or girlfriend that he hasn't slept with their friend. To me it has always sounded like the former, where the guy's current girlfriend is jealous/suspicious and he's trying to allay her suspicions, possibly lying and going overboard about how much distaste he has for the hoodrat chick. It feels like he's trying to convince the new girlfriend (and possibly himself) that he doesn't care for the hoodrat (lines like "your little hoodrat friend makes me sick"), but those lines are all followed by a display of either fondness or nostalgia ("but after I get sick I just get sad," or the verse about her getting him high when they were stuck up up up in Osseo, which sounds very much like a fond memory for the narrator). To weekender, this is pretty clear evidence that Charlemagne and Holly did know each other when they were 17, along with Five's example of "they met as kids..." I can see it.. besides what I've said already, I mostly just have tone of voice stuff. The way he says 'sick,' I believe him. The way he says 'sad,' I don't feel he has much of a connection to her, but that it makes him reflect on his own circumstances. When he talks about her rejecting him, he sounds genuinely regretful that he never slept with her - and although there's not direct evidence in the text, I find it hard to believe Holly and Charlemagne never slept together. We're in the realm of the completely subjective here, though. If you stretch geography a little (or maybe there was another time he got hurt but not Almost Killed?) it totally works. And yeah Weekender, agree completely with that last post. I'm enjoying the back and forth |
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Post by wickedstrict on Jun 22, 2010 15:21:35 GMT -5
I like hearing both your interpretations because it makes me challenge simple assumptions I have made that may either be false or just don't necessarily need to be made. It's delightfully frustrating how vague Craig has left the story. He makes clear references to previous songs by using the same exact lyrics, causing you to think you know what's going on. But, he gives new clues/ambiguities/contradictions in the new song that aren't present in the song from the previous album, making you second guess what you thought about the first song. Who knew that so much discussion and differing interpretations could be had over 4 songs, 5 if you include Multitude from the beginning of our discussion. edit: I mean, Craig could have just told us "Charlemagne said..." and then "Holly said..." instead of "he" and "she." What an a-hole |
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). It'll be fun, and will make me listen to all their songs instead of always skipping certain songs (not literally Certain Songs, that one is definitely scratched into my soul).