five
Clever Kid
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Post by five on May 21, 2010 15:58:11 GMT -5
Red Mages suck, Lost sucks, and Libertarians suck. We have a TV Thread, and there are most likely still Vidya and Politics threads in the General section. Black Mages rule. Well, a RedMage is like a Black Mage, White Mage and a Fighter all rolled into one, with a cape and a pimp hat. He kinda ownz. That does sound ballin. Compare/contrast with the frog in Chrono Trigger? |
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Post by soniclovenoize on May 21, 2010 17:20:59 GMT -5
I actually have never played Chrono Trigger!  I've been meaning to, and the roms just sitting here on my computer. Isn't it like the sequal to Secret of Mana? I loved that one! |
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five
Clever Kid
Posts: 54
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Post by five on May 21, 2010 18:01:36 GMT -5
Haha I can't compare to Secret of Mana, but it's graphically identical to FFVI. I like the characters (Frog with a broadsword, feral cavewoman), there's cooperative tech/magic attacks, and no random encounters. It's the only Square RPG I've finished  |
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bigrob
Midnight Hauler
i guess i knew it was coming
Posts: 1,352
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Post by bigrob on May 22, 2010 4:53:54 GMT -5
Red Mages suck, Lost sucks, and Libertarians suck. We have a TV Thread, and there are most likely still Vidya and Politics threads in the General section. Black Mages rule. Well, a RedMage is like a Black Mage, White Mage and a Fighter all rolled into one, with a cape and a pimp hat. He kinda ownz. No, he's a shitty Black Mage, a shitty White Mage, and a shitty Fighter all rolled into one. Why would you want to be average at a few things when you could be amazing at a specific thing? Also, the hat is kind of lame if you ask me. |
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bigrob
Midnight Hauler
i guess i knew it was coming
Posts: 1,352
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Post by bigrob on May 22, 2010 4:57:40 GMT -5
Frog is pretty much a Red Mage, since he had that wicked sword, could use white magic, and I believe could cast Water. Sort of limited (like all Red Mages), but Frog was a kick ass exception to the lame ass Red Mage rule.
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Post by tyslothrop on May 22, 2010 17:39:25 GMT -5
i wasn't mad, sorry if it came off that way and i think i complimented you for the work. i probably hurried my thoughts which led to your confusion but i think soniclove did a much better job of saying what i wanted to, in that a chronological organizing of this story is most likely impossible and it needs to be tackled from a different angle, more like a crossword puzzle with intersecting events or a branching tree etc.
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five
Clever Kid
Posts: 54
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Post by five on May 23, 2010 1:28:42 GMT -5
No worries man I mostly wonder what you meant by the Chips Ahoy! thing.
If it seeing it as a cohesive narration doesn't add anything for you, or makes you enjoy it less, by all means ignore it. I think the case that it is cohesive and that a linear plot more or less exists is pretty strong though. There's clearly a long span of time between Holly leaving Massachusetts and coming to in a confessional (my friend things twentyish years, I read it as something like 3-5), and it fits together too well for me to believe it's completely accidental. Like I said in the OP, it fits together much more cleanly than I originally thought it would when I began making the timeline. The bonus tracks for Almost Killed Me are really illuminating, they spell out the plot more clearly than any of the proper album tracks (except arguably Separation Sunday, which is clearly a concept album with a solid beginning, middle, and end).
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2010 9:37:13 GMT -5
I actually have never played Chrono Trigger! I've been meaning to, and the roms just sitting here on my computer. Isn't it like the sequal to Secret of Mana? I loved that one! nah Secret of Mana (and it's better psuedo-sequel, Secret of Evermore) are action RPGs. Chrono Trigger is a traditional turned based RPG. it's just been remade for the DS and hell let's get this shit back on track narrative isn't neccesary for videogames (except RPGs) but it adds something extra when it's good same for music and Chrono Trigger has multiple endings... maybe THS' story does too. Romantic Comedy/Comeback Story/Murder Mystery |
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five
Clever Kid
Posts: 54
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Post by five on May 23, 2010 11:13:13 GMT -5
and hell let's get this shit back on track narrative isn't neccesary for videogames (except RPGs) but it adds something extra when it's good same for music and Chrono Trigger has multiple endings... maybe THS' story does too. Romantic Comedy/Comeback Story/Murder Mystery Speaking of endings, I'm thinking A Slight Discomfort could be Gideon's epilogue the way Holly has Resurrection and Charlemagne has Slapped Actress. The narrator has been in fights before, and seems more or less comfortable with murder. "Our Struggle" has overtones of nazism (Hitler's book Mein Kampf translates to 'My Struggle'), and the line about spiders is a weak link to the spiderweb tattoos of the Skins. I'm not certain but I could see it. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2010 18:01:58 GMT -5
maybe the fight in Barely Breathing is what all the plot stuff and mythologizing is about
the narrator - let's say a young, kinda nerdyish Craig Finn, but maybe not- gets beat up by skins in the pit at a show
and over the years it gets retold into this mythic tale of double crossing and murder and resurrection
but it started with him telling some friends 'there were skins in the pit and they almost killed me'
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hurricanejoe
Sniffling Indie Kid
I recite lines from movies when I'm trying to be funny.
Posts: 182
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Post by hurricanejoe on May 24, 2010 15:35:14 GMT -5
I just accidentally the whole discography (yes, the WHOLE thing). Is this bad.
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Post by soniclovenoize on May 24, 2010 20:14:22 GMT -5
Well, a RedMage is like a Black Mage, White Mage and a Fighter all rolled into one, with a cape and a pimp hat. He kinda ownz. No, he's a shitty Black Mage, a shitty White Mage, and a shitty Fighter all rolled into one. Why would you want to be average at a few things when you could be amazing at a specific thing? Also, the hat is kind of lame if you ask me. No. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2010 20:26:56 GMT -5
speaking of magic, Harry Potter was a popular series about magic. and what was the music useless magic school in Harry Potter? Divination. which is kinda what Sapphire does
WHICH BRINGS US BACK ON TOPIC
(jrpgs suck)
(somebody should make a Gaming thread in general discussion. like me)
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Post by kidwithkids on May 26, 2010 15:01:00 GMT -5
Though they aren't mentioned by name, The Weekenders is about the couple from Chips Ahoy getting back in touch over Facebook and seeing if they can re-spark the magic. CF said that on NPR over the weekend. Not sure how that fits in to your chronology, but I figured I'd mention it.
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five
Clever Kid
Posts: 54
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Post by five on May 26, 2010 22:55:01 GMT -5
I figured it was the same people, with the line about clairvoyance. I still haven't looked that closely at the lyrics yet, I've been kinda lazy looking at the new album. I'll get there
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Post by kidwithkids on May 28, 2010 7:19:09 GMT -5
So I finally got all the tunes, and put them into a playlist and listening to almost all of it driving around in my car yesterday. Great way to listen to the story, thanks for all the work you put into it!
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Post by esq16blu on Jun 1, 2010 14:00:05 GMT -5
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Post by wickedstrict on Jun 18, 2010 14:20:36 GMT -5
First post. I've been a THS fan since 2008 and have been lurking on this board for a month or two now. I want to echo the vast majority of the sentiment in this thread that says great job. I thoroughly enjoyed reading and thinking about your interpretation, and simply want to further the discussion. If you haven't seen it, you should definitely check out this post about the plot and characters: www.theholdsteady.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=steady&action=display&thread=2270&page=3I've read both your summary and the other, and think they're both awesome, but not entirely accurate/correct. I think trying to merge them could be very useful in both constructing the linear story and figuring out how all the characters fit together. One specific problem that crops up for me is on Separation Sunday, and subsequent references to it, talking about the girl being born again and the hoodrat chick. "How a Resurrection Really Feels" makes clear that Holly is the hoodrat, which suggests to me that "Your Little Hoodrat Friend" is Charlemagne talking to some other character (most likely Sapphire), explaining that he did not sleep with Holly. If so, then in the line "the night that she got born again, he was getting with her little hoodrat friend," the "she" getting born again cannot be Holly. Does that mean the girl being born again is Sapphire? Thoughts? Part of what I love about Craig's lyrics is that they are somewhat vague and confusing, with songs often having different verses about different things, or from different characters' perspectives. I think the key to piecing everything together is determining (as definitively as possible by using references in other songs) which characters are speaking about which other characters in each instance. It seems like just about every THS songs includes a line (or many lines) starting with or including "he said" or "she said." If we can determine who those hes and shes are, the picture would seem to get a lot clearer. Sorry for the extremely long first post, but I look forward to everyone's input. |
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Post by fairysari on Jun 18, 2010 20:16:02 GMT -5
If so, then in the line "the night that she got born again, he was getting with her little hoodrat friend," the "she" getting born again cannot be Holly. Does that mean the girl being born again is Sapphire? Thoughts? I've spent way too much time thinking about that one line. I think of it as the night that she (Holly) got born again, he was getting getting with her (Holly's) little hoodrat friend. I think hoodrat is a more general descriptive term here, it doesn't have to refer to one specific hoodrat. |
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five
Clever Kid
Posts: 54
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Post by five on Jun 18, 2010 23:14:45 GMT -5
If so, then in the line "the night that she got born again, he was getting with her little hoodrat friend," the "she" getting born again cannot be Holly. Does that mean the girl being born again is Sapphire? Thoughts? I've spent way too much time thinking about that one line. I think of it as the night that she (Holly) got born again, he was getting getting with her (Holly's) little hoodrat friend. I think hoodrat is a more general descriptive term here, it doesn't have to refer to one specific hoodrat. I spent a bit of time trying to reconcile that too, and it doesn't quite add up for me. Making Sapphire the girl in Multitude of Casualties isn't perfect either, for two reasons - open[ing] up three buttons suggests Holly (referencing Cattle), and the folk mass does too, religious imagery is usually a Holly marker. The other reason is, if it is Sapphire, are other songs explicitly about her too, at this point? It feels weird to introduce a character in this song, and if other songs are about her, which ones? I dunno that explanation is worth considering and I'll check out that other thread too. Glad you liked my timeline  |
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Post by soniclovenoize on Jun 19, 2010 22:29:00 GMT -5
Maybe it's a whole 'nother character that Craig has yet to name?
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five
Clever Kid
Posts: 54
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Post by five on Jun 20, 2010 1:12:21 GMT -5
Like maybe but except for that line it's SUCH a Holly song.
Actually just as I was typing this something clicked. Like fuckin boom got it, fits with the thematic elements of the song and the chronology of the album. Holly was a hoodrat, but who would HER little hoodrat friend be?
That line is Gideon stabbing Charlemagne.
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Post by theweekender on Jun 21, 2010 2:53:36 GMT -5
I've just been thinking... Is it possible that we're over thinking all of this? This isn't a TV show, a movie or a book. It is a series of albums that are loosely connected by several reccuring characters. I'm not a fan who's been studying for years. I've only been following the band since October and I haven't heard every word that Craig and the band has spoken about anything. But from what I have heard, all they talk about is making rock and roll with intelligent lyrics. Holly appears in several songs, so does Charlemagne. Sapphire might too, but that doesn't mean all the songs connect together to create a cohesive story. I've seen people try to make Adderall a part of the story. However, why can't it just be a song about person who's failed at life and doesn't want someone to see them? Or You Can Make Him Like You, Massive Nights, Party Pit, Citrus, Chillout Tent, Stuck Between Stations, Stay Positive, Sequestered, Constructive Summer, or so many other songs that I see people try to include, be about something other than the story?
And I might be reaching, but I would be extremely surprised if Craig sat down and plotted the story as densely as we're trying to. I'm sure he actively recalls songs, but I don't think songs that use lines from each other are necessarily direct sequels. People thinking that might just be a consequence from him liking to do that. Hell, for all we know Holly is just a name he really likes. Bruce Springsteen writes a lot of songs about Mary, but there's no connection. (To be fair, Holly is clearly the same character through out the songs). I think that if he were to actually write in prose what his story would be, it would be entirely different than the one the OP stated here and completely different from the one from a few months ago that wickedstrict posted and both of those would be different from a screenwriter's interpretation. I don't think this story was ever planned as being a linear narrative, but one to call back to ever now and then, with little worry of continuity or canon.
If it doesn't all work out at the end of the day, who cares? It's a good story. Who cares who the hoodrat friend is? Or who gets with who? We all know the key events and we all know the morals of the story. We are our only saviors and stay positive. I personally don't need anything else. Although, it'd be cool to see someone's interpretation on the big screen...
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five
Clever Kid
Posts: 54
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Post by five on Jun 21, 2010 8:06:52 GMT -5
Dude if you don't like spergin out over the lyrics, that's cool. It's fun for me, it's part of my enjoyment of band. That said, I think you're reading too much into what I'm trying to do.
Separation Sunday is a concept album, clearly outlining Holly's rise and fall. Stay Positive isn't quite a concept album, but it explores a single event from different points of view. I think we can all agree on this. Almost Killed Me isn't really a concept album, only Hostile Mass, Sweet Payne, and Killer Parties tell a little story, but almost all of the songs seem to be setting up a world for Separation to take place in. They're not necessarily connected, but imagining they are lends weight to Almost and adds depth to Separation. If they're the same story, it makes both better (besides the fact that the bonus tracks of Almost are very, very plot-heavy and suggest a deliberate link between the albums).
Boys and Girls isn't a plot album - even the songs that unquestionable involve Holly, Gideon, and Charlemagne are fleshing out their characters rather than advancing any sort of narrative. Only Chips Ahoy! becomes a plot song after Stay Positive is released, if you choose to read it as an introduction to Charlemagne and Sapphire's relationship, but according to the interview that was posted it wasn't intended that way. Still, it fits and the connections make the story better, whether they were intended or not - going from "How'm I supposed to know that you're high if you won't let me touch you" to "the last time we touched I came on a bit rough" is brilliant storytelling, because it tells us a huge amount of information about the character very very subtly. The implications for Charlemagne himself as a person, for the circumstances of his life immediately before, after, and in between these stages, and the relationship between him and Sapphire are huge. That it might not have been deliberate just makes it more mind-bogglingly good.
Stay Positive is sort of split between more general songs, like the first half of Almost Killed Me, and songs about the fight between the townies. The kid who gets stabbed is strongly, strongly implied to be Charlemagne by the lyrics of Slapped Actress, and pretty much 100% confirmed by name in the bonus track Ask Her for Adderall. I don't think that, when he was writing Separation Sunday, Craig was planning the songs that would become Stay Positive, but I do think that we he started writing Stay Positive he recognized that there was a section of the story that could be expanded upon and went with it.
I'm not a longtime fan either, I started with Boys and Girls and went on to hear all of their work within the span of a couple months. I think AKM and SS were probably meant to be interwoven, given that Charlemagne in Sweatpants was the first song they wrote as a band, and that Stay Positive came about much later to flesh out the details of an event mentioned only obliquely in Separation. The reason that line in Multitude of Casualties has been bothering me, and why it was such a eureka moment to figure it out, is because it's always sounded like euphemism but I could never figure out what for, and because it was the one detail that I just couldn't get to make sense in terms of the larger story. And whatever you think of the expanded timeline, Separation itself is definitely a concept album with a clear, interconnected plot from song to song. That little detail kind of ties the whole thing together.
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five
Clever Kid
Posts: 54
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Post by five on Jun 21, 2010 8:11:19 GMT -5
tl;dr: we're almost definitely overthinking this but I enjoy it and am going to continue to do so. Also the line in Mutlitude is important for Separation Sunday to make sense as a concept album, whether or not songs from other albums are related
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I've been meaning to, and the roms just sitting here on my computer. Isn't it like the sequal to Secret of Mana? I loved that one! 
