five
Clever Kid
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Post by five on May 18, 2010 23:06:59 GMT -5
Damn man move to Boston and hang out with me. Do you need a what.cd invite?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 23:10:43 GMT -5
not sure what that is but... yes?
and if you like Phonomancer, check out the tabletop RPG Unknown Armies... where your obsessions give you power
but somehow nobody's been able to write up a good music-based school for it
man we've lost the plot.... and i'm not sure how THS' 'story' lyrics interact with their universal ones. like We Can Get Together. out of context/as a single it's a joyous, redemptive song and i'll probably put it on a mix for the next girl i dig. 'hey, like you. Heaven's whenever we get together'
but in-story is it just, yeah, a breather? a bit of nostalgia for somebody who's completely lost?
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five
Clever Kid
Posts: 54
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Post by five on May 18, 2010 23:18:21 GMT -5
It's a private bittorrent tracker for music, you can get great speeds and guaranteed non-transcoded lossy files. It also has software and comics, but it's primarily for music. PM me an e-mail and I'll send an invite.
I assumed the less plot-heavy songs were more autobiographical. There's some similarities between Charlemagne and CF, born in Boston, moved to west, you can stretch the analogy as little or as far as you want to. There's also some songs sung by Craig Finn as a character in the story, such as Party Pit, it's possible to read Heaven is Whenever as the Craig Finn Character discovering music.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 23:26:46 GMT -5
the autobiographical stuff is neat too. the big ones are Positive Jam ('hey, we're not LifterPuller anymore. we're a new band. you'll love us. here's our first song!') ('course, the whole 'woke up in the _____' could also refer to a vampire waking up every decade), Stay Positive (intercutting some sad stuff about the aging character with THS love for us and our love for them) and Rock Problems (Hey douchebags, stop asking me about shit you heard on the Internet)
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five
Clever Kid
Posts: 54
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Post by five on May 19, 2010 0:17:36 GMT -5
There's something to be said about 'the sing along songs will be our scriptures,' the nature of oral history, and the state of pop music (broadly interpreted) today, but it's late and I'm too tired to throw too many words behind it. It's funny that music is so rarely used for long-form narrative, and even more rarely used well, when originally that was one of its primary purposes. I'd need to do some research but do you think it's the nature of radio as a medium that led us to the 3:30 minute song form, or some other factor?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 0:35:25 GMT -5
There's something to be said about 'the sing along songs will be our scriptures,' the nature of oral history, and the state of pop music (broadly interpreted) today, but it's late and I'm too tired to throw too many words behind it. It's funny that music is so rarely used for long-form narrative, and even more rarely used well, when originally that was one of its primary purposes. I'd need to do some research but do you think it's the nature of radio as a medium that led us to the 3:30 minute song form, or some other factor? i'd argue that it's partly the fragmentation of the market. the people who want music with long-form narratives are getting it but prog/metal (again, i'm assuming... not a massive fan) are pretty niche meanwhile Jesus Of Suburbia was an 18 minute hit and Decemberists/Joanna Newsom/Titus Andronicus are all doing well in their markets remember, short singles were the norm until Dylan hit with Like A Rolling Stone the 'singalong songs will be our scriptures' line is universal among pretty much everyone, from kids writing Billy Joel in yearbooks to people quoting Dio's own lyrics to memorialize his death. it's mass theology/philosophy/religion/sex and a damn good thing too |
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Post by 99rockproblems on May 19, 2010 0:56:37 GMT -5
The 3 minute song was definitely a factor of technology: records couldn't hold much space in their beginnings, and the radio just proliferated that.
Now while songs have expanded past the 2 minute mark towards more of a 3:30-4:30 range on average, a lot of recorded music has increased in length to be much, much longer than this.
It's the mainstream audience's (see also: amateur listener's) fault that they have such short attention spans that they can barely handle a song over 5 minutes in length without whining about it (let's not forget how viscerally they react negatively against music without words either! gasp!)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 1:11:43 GMT -5
It's the mainstream audience's (see also: amateur listener's) fault that they have such short attention spans that they can barely handle a song over 5 minutes in length without whining about it (let's not forget how viscerally they react negatively against music without words either! gasp!) i dunno... I'm a Ramones fan i think one of THS' strengths is they can tell a story in a few lines or in short songs instead of 'Seperation Sunday: The Redemption Of Holly: Suite 1: Stevie Nicks (Pt 2)' or whatever |
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Post by soniclovenoize on May 19, 2010 7:33:10 GMT -5
Damn man move to Boston and hang out with me. Do you need a what.cd invite? What's yuour username? |
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five
Clever Kid
Posts: 54
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Post by five on May 19, 2010 7:50:45 GMT -5
Damn man move to Boston and hang out with me. Do you need a what.cd invite? What's yuour username? Egomatic. Feel free to add me  You should hop on it if you want it Tion, the invite expires in a couple days |
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Post by 99rockproblems on May 19, 2010 14:24:05 GMT -5
It's the mainstream audience's (see also: amateur listener's) fault that they have such short attention spans that they can barely handle a song over 5 minutes in length without whining about it (let's not forget how viscerally they react negatively against music without words either! gasp!) i dunno... I'm a Ramones fan i think one of THS' strengths is they can tell a story in a few lines or in short songs instead of 'Seperation Sunday: The Redemption Of Holly: Suite 1: Stevie Nicks (Pt 2)' or whatever Are we talking about what constitutes as successful songwriting here, or are we talking about what factors led to the rise of the 3 minute song as the "standard"? I think both ways of writing music have their pros and cons and people have attempted them with varying degrees of success. The Hold Steady are definitely one of those bands who manage to tell a story in a far more interesting and successful fashion than some of the long-winded crap that manages to make it on albums these days. I believe both in the power of the short-and-sweet ("Fell in Love With a Girl," the Ramones, the early Beatles) as well as the power of the lengthy song/track (Joanna Newsom, GY!BE, "Hey Jude"), so there's no real debate to be had there in my eyes. However, there is definitely a reason why songs and albums have a bit of an "average" length: the factors that lead to this are often cultural and technological. Representing the lengthier side of the debate, the length of the album (between 30 and 60 minutes) can be clearly traced through Western Symphonies, which can then be traced through to mass cycles. We've been culturally trained to accept this length as a sort of standard, and studies show our attention spans drift dramatically after an hour of listening to music. Representing the shorter end of things, the single song (average length 2 to 4 minutes) seems to me to be more a factor of technology than of culture. When the first records were being pressed, songwriters and performers had to limit their output to only a few minutes of music. That in turn has led to a pretty substantial culture of commodified music where the standard musical "unit" is the 3 minute pop song. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 18:18:14 GMT -5
yeah but we've got zero technological limits now and i think that's leading to the fragmentation of the market.
plus you've got stuff cut for dance floors or remixed or whatever
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Post by grouchomarx42 on May 19, 2010 19:10:58 GMT -5
I know I've probably joined in the conversation a little too late, but I'm definitely interested in seeing where Jessie fits into the THS cannon.
I can certainly buy that she's sketched out in "Certain Songs", and from that we can guess that she's the subject in "40 Bucks" and "We Can Get Together"... "40 Bucks" references both of them with the lines "certain songs get scratched right in" and "She’s never even met the dude but she heard the song and it was pretty cool. A sad, slow waltz about a pure and simple love." Being a girl that hangs out in restaurants, I'd assume that she had a lot of control over what's playing on the jukebox, so it would make sense that she would be sharing these songs from Utopia and Husker Du. Also, "40 Bucks" and "Hurricane J" make references to Jessie's cigarettes.
Based on the line in "40 Bucks" (Her bio-dad played bass guitar in a five-piece out of Wichita.), I'm actually thinking that in "We Can Get Together", Jessie has finally met her father and they're listening to records as a way to bond after 22 years apart. But I'm not entirely sure how that would fit into the cannon.
Going back to the cigarette imagery, there seem to be a few songs which mention an unnamed girl smoking cigs:
- Sweet Payne: "girl i've seen your friend. she looks nothing like jada pinkett. i think you got something in those cigarettes."
- For Boston: "It's heaven, and heaven is a place you can never find your cigarettes"
- Sketchy Metal: "she only pays attention to the prices of cigarettes. she says she hopes they get cheaper."
- The Smidge: "We used to pretend that we'd never met. And then you'd send a signal with your cigarette."
- 40 Bucks: "They made her on the night they met in a motel made of cigarettes."
Which, of course, all ties into "Don't all the cigs make you tired?" Could I possibly be onto something, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
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five
Clever Kid
Posts: 54
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Post by five on May 19, 2010 20:05:17 GMT -5
yeah but we've got zero technological limits now and i think that's leading to the fragmentation of the market. plus you've got stuff cut for dance floors or remixed or whatever Are you familiar with the telecommunications act of 1996? It had a huge impact on pop music of the last decade, and really pushed that fragmentation along. Bands like Sleep or A Silver Mt. Zion might not have been making 20-60 minute songs if they had a hope of getting on the radio, or if they didn't have the Internet to attract an audience. Groucho, that's great work on Jessie. I've been distracted this week but I need to put some serious time into Heaven, I'll let you know what I come up with but that's a great writeup already. |
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Post by trifecta on May 20, 2010 7:22:48 GMT -5
plus, what else is the 'white crosses and wooden stakes' line about? It is a reference to the Klu Klux Klan mate and their influence in the South, which is what the song is all about. At the risk of being rude do you not think that maybe you are over analysing this stuff? Craig Finn writes a lot of songs about a lot of stuff and maybe the recurring names and themes are just that, recurring. Just a thought. |
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Post by soniclovenoize on May 20, 2010 8:49:08 GMT -5
I would have to agree with trifecta here. I wouldn't assume anything unless you have some solid proof. I've always thought "Certain Songs" was about everybody's love of music in general and how certain songs become a soundtrack to our life. To suddenly say "Oh, it's all about Jessie!" is really a stretch. To say all the songs are about one related thing isn't giving Craig much credit that he could write about many things, you know?
Also, if you play Barfruit Blues backwards, you can hear Craig say "Tad is a dead man, miss him miss him..."
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five
Clever Kid
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Post by five on May 20, 2010 12:05:10 GMT -5
It's really fun intellectualizing and analyzing pop music. Before I got into the Hold Steady my friends and I were having hourslong conversations about Bad Romance. The author is dead, you're free to own the art you find.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2010 18:36:23 GMT -5
It's really fun intellectualizing and analyzing pop music. Before I got into the Hold Steady my friends and I were having hourslong conversations about Bad Romance. The author is dead, you're free to own the art you find. gotta plug one of my fave blogs, www.overthinkingit.com/and not just 'cause they recorded a blues cover of Tik Tok after i mentioned she's got the same lyrical themes as old blues guys and yeah THS kinda bring together the two halves of my life. they rock out, and i like rocking out.. but they also scratch my nerdy itch to make connections without going full on Dragonforce |
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Post by soniclovenoize on May 21, 2010 8:20:27 GMT -5
Let's see if we can derail this thread any more:
How do you construct your party on FF1?
Me: Fighter, Black Belt, RedMage, WhiteMage
My logic is a BlackMage isn't needed, because the RedMage can use Black Magic AND swords, and he looks like a pimp.
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five
Clever Kid
Posts: 54
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Post by five on May 21, 2010 11:57:59 GMT -5
I was gonna go along and do a short politics post, but honestly this is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to engender by posting this thread |
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Post by soniclovenoize on May 21, 2010 12:10:15 GMT -5
You mean your best party for FF1?
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five
Clever Kid
Posts: 54
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Post by five on May 21, 2010 12:23:31 GMT -5
never played an FF game. We could talk about Lost finally ending or the moral bankruptcy of libertarianism, if you really want to change the subject  |
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bigrob
Midnight Hauler
i guess i knew it was coming
Posts: 1,352
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Post by bigrob on May 21, 2010 15:10:40 GMT -5
Red Mages suck, Lost sucks, and Libertarians suck.
We have a TV Thread, and there are most likely still Vidya and Politics threads in the General section.
Black Mages rule.
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five
Clever Kid
Posts: 54
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Post by five on May 21, 2010 15:43:50 GMT -5
Yeah I'd rather talk about the nature of art in the specific and abstract in any case.
I'm pretty sure this is why the Hold Steady have completely overwhelmed my attention since I started listening to them: their execution of narrative is, as far as I know, completely unique. They write enjoyable standard format pop songs that are self-consciously derivative of the music they listened to as kids, while telling a cohesive story that spans at least four albums. Further, the derivative nature of their music serves the overall themes of nostalgia, youth, and age they sing about.
It's getting close to two months and it's still really hard for me to listen to another band.
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Post by soniclovenoize on May 21, 2010 15:44:08 GMT -5
Red Mages suck, Lost sucks, and Libertarians suck. We have a TV Thread, and there are most likely still Vidya and Politics threads in the General section. Black Mages rule. Well, a RedMage is like a Black Mage, White Mage and a Fighter all rolled into one, with a cape and a pimp hat. He kinda ownz. |
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