|
Post by mike on Feb 24, 2009 9:28:32 GMT -5
I dont think they want or care about our constructive critisism. They are a band, they make music and play shows. We are fans, we buy CD's and go to shows. It's not a community project, we dont all get a say. I dont understand why people want to throw there two cents into the bands private affairs. You don't think fans should be passionatly engaged with art? in my view, fans are without question entitled to be passionately engaged with art. the problems lie when they think that means their opinion should count to the artists themselves. as far as my creative processes are concerned, i couldn't really give two shits about feedback if i'm satisfied with what i'm doing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2009 17:25:57 GMT -5
hmmm i think THS are at a place where they know what they're doing.. they've been musos for ages and they've got a handle on their sound i'd love more feedback on what i'm doing, since i'm mostly making it up as i go along i guess it also depends on the medium... i'm a bit of a comic book fan and almost all the creators, even the big name guys like Gaiman and Moore, spend heaps of time blogging/messege boarding/all that (tho Neil Gaiman never showed up on his board... bastard) can be good. can be bad. its just that in a world where Joss Whedon gets into Livejournal debates with critics its weird to be like 'fans have no connection to whatever they're fans of'
|
|
|
Post by jtd7 on Feb 24, 2009 18:38:18 GMT -5
what am i, chopped liver? I was buoyed through my day by the mental image of chopped liver with a waxed moustache. I seem to have a different understanding of the term “criticism” than many of the posts on this thread. I don’t view music criticism as telling the band what they did wrong and what they did right. I view it as an attempt to understand better how the music moves me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2009 20:22:31 GMT -5
something like this has just hit the geekosphere, with a noted fantasy author attacking his fans for attacking him: grrm.livejournal.com/75053.htmlwhatever.scalzi.com/2009/02/23/pissy-fans/"quote him. Some fans do have a tendency to forget that the creative folks they love are not simply black boxes, who produce desired product at regular intervals. They’re actually real people who do other things than just what the fans want them to do, because humans from time to time want to do the things they want to do, not the things other people want them to do. Yes, some fans don’t like that, but you know what, screw the type of fan who thinks a writer (or musician, or actor, or whatever) exists only to provide them with the entertainment of their choosing."
|
|
|
Post by theblondette on Feb 24, 2009 21:03:59 GMT -5
Go George! I was wondering if tht was gonna be a throw-the-toys-outta-the-pram rant, but no, everything he says is quite justified. It's one thing to be able to ignore internet discussions of your stuff, but to constantly be getting emails and mail to say you should do things differently, and basically not lead the life you currently do, must get pretty damn dispiriting.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2009 21:12:33 GMT -5
how many novels and stories has Stephen King written about obsessessed fans who try to kill/torture authors?
|
|
|
Post by theblondette on Feb 24, 2009 21:20:49 GMT -5
Haha, a few. And of course, Stepehn King had the whole work-in-progress crazy fans thing with The Dark Tower!
|
|
|
Post by howardfinkel483 on Feb 24, 2009 21:26:38 GMT -5
Hi everybody, Haven't been around too much lately. School, other things, etc.
Don't have too much new to offer to the discussion I guess, but I do disagree with the hypersensitivity toward criticism in this place. It's nice to have dissent, especially as the band releases more and more music. I'm a big Mountain Goats fan so I'm used to plenty of people dissing certain eras, albums, songs. Obviously, tMG are more prolific and have more concretely different styles between old-era and new-era. But the situation does still seem to be pretty similar. It's reasonable that we're all not going to like the band for the same reasons.
The fan base is splintering into different fragments, which as everyone's said happens with most bands. As the band and the board go on, those of us who are friends will still be friends but maybe we'll disagree more and more about albums, songs, venue-choices, etc. It doesn't seem like the end of the world to me. Bands make compromises, fans do too. As a Mountain Goats fan, I don't mind going to a show just to see him do maybe 1 or 2 songs I've never heard before from an old album. I imagine, in time, it will be the same with the Hold Steady for me.
Re: the DMB-shows criticism, this hits closer to home for me. I think a lot of us might just be younger and inexperienced w/ the whole small-indie-to-big-rock band shift. So perhaps the elders can humor us w/ letting us voice our disappointments that the capital R Redemptive power of rock music isn't as powerful as we thought it was? Idealization comes out as self-defeating sometimes yanno?
I also think there's a mighty big difference between wanting to covet the band to ourselves and wanting to still be able to identify with the band. I don't think the majority of us want to dislike the band and the shows (WD, blackbeard, etc); it's just getting harder to identify with it all. I mean I didn't even realize how little I've listened to Stay Positive in the last few months until I was on the treadmill yesterday and found myself skipping over all the new Steady songs on my playlist. We're just coming to terms with things; I do hope there's still room for us who aren't exactly enthused by the band's direction though.
Much love to everybody, old friends, dissenters, newcomers and all. -confetti Mike
PS I have a show to share sometime soon, '08 Paradise Boston show for SP; the band plays Knuckles, I think y'all will enjoy it.
|
|
Admin
Midnight Hauler
Posts: 2,434
|
Post by Admin on Feb 24, 2009 21:52:02 GMT -5
Confetti Mike, it's good to hear from you! Going to any spring shows?
|
|
|
Post by howardfinkel483 on Feb 24, 2009 21:58:24 GMT -5
Heyy Brendan, good to hear from ya too. Prob. not making any Spring shows. Closest bet would be the Mtn Jam show but I'm putting a lot of money into seeing tMG solo tours this spring and Bruce come through the Northeast in May. (Have never seen Bruce before, was supposed to see him in the summer but was stuck in traffic for an hour and a half and my ticket-guy sold his to someone else)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2009 22:00:42 GMT -5
Haha, a few. And of course, Stepehn King had the whole work-in-progress crazy fans thing with The Dark Tower! yeah! but he was clever enough to piss off those hardcore Dark Tower fans with his last 3 books so that we are no longer obsessessed and now just feel a bit sad when the series is mentioned
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2009 22:02:47 GMT -5
"Re: the DMB-shows criticism, this hits closer to home for me. I think a lot of us might just be younger and inexperienced w/ the whole small-indie-to-big-rock band shift. So perhaps the elders can humor us w/ letting us voice our disappointments that the capital R Redemptive power of rock music isn't as powerful as we thought it was? Idealization comes out as self-defeating sometimes yanno?"
i think it isn't the 'getting bigger' as it is the band they're opening for... i've been through the 'indie to mainstream' cycle before and it is weird. like if Kings of Leon weren't the BIGGEST BAND IN THE WORLD right now or one of them i'd probably listen to them alot more
|
|
|
Post by hoodrat on Feb 25, 2009 6:54:34 GMT -5
Heyy Brendan, good to hear from ya too. Prob. not making any Spring shows. Closest bet would be the Mtn Jam show but I'm putting a lot of money into seeing tMG solo tours this spring and Bruce come through the Northeast in May. (Have never seen Bruce before, was supposed to see him in the summer but was stuck in traffic for an hour and a half and my ticket-guy sold his to someone else) baltimore? c'mon.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Feb 25, 2009 7:00:45 GMT -5
something like this has just hit the geekosphere, with a noted fantasy author attacking his fans for attacking him: grrm.livejournal.com/75053.htmlwhatever.scalzi.com/2009/02/23/pissy-fans/"quote him. Some fans do have a tendency to forget that the creative folks they love are not simply black boxes, who produce desired product at regular intervals. They’re actually real people who do other things than just what the fans want them to do, because humans from time to time want to do the things they want to do, not the things other people want them to do. Yes, some fans don’t like that, but you know what, screw the type of fan who thinks a writer (or musician, or actor, or whatever) exists only to provide them with the entertainment of their choosing." that's well said. it kind of reminds me of the time nick cave got nominated for an mtv award: TO ALL THOSE AT MTV, I WOULD LIKE TO START BY THANKING YOU ALL FOR THE SUPPORT YOU HAVE GIVEN ME OVER RECENT YEARS AND I AM BOTH GRATEFUL AND FLATTERED BY THE NOMINATIONS THAT I HAVE RECEIVED FOR BEST MALE ARTIST. THE AIR PLAY GIVEN TO BOTH THE KYLIE MINOGUE AND P. J. HARVEY DUETS FROM MY LATEST ALBUM MURDER BALLADS HAS NOT GONE UNNOTICED AND HAS BEEN GREATLY APPRECIATED. SO AGAIN MY SINCERE THANKS. HAVING SAID THAT, I FEEL THAT IT'S NECESSARY FOR ME TO REQUEST THAT MY NOMINATION FOR BEST MALE ARTIST BE WITHDRAWN AND FURTHERMORE ANY AWARDS OR NOMINATIONS FOR SUCH AWARDS THAT MAY ARISE IN LATER YEARS BE PRESENTED TO THOSE WHO FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THE COMPETITIVE NATURE OF THESE AWARD CEREMONIES. I MYSELF, DO NOT. I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN OF THE OPINION THAT MY MUSIC IS UNIQUE AND INDIVIDUAL AND EXISTS BEYOND THE REALMS INHABITED BY THOSE WHO WOULD REDUCE THINGS TO MERE MEASURING. I AM IN COMPETITION WITH NO-ONE. MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY MUSE IS A DELICATE ONE AT THE BEST OF TIMES AND I FEEL THAT IT IS MY DUTY TO PROTECT HER FROM INFLUENCES THAT MAY OFFEND HER FRAGILE NATURE. SHE COMES TO ME WITH THE GIFT OF SONG AND IN RETURN I TREAT HER WITH THE RESPECT I FEEL SHE DESERVES - IN THIS CASE THIS MEANS NOT SUBJECTING HER TO THE INDIGNITIES OF JUDGEMENT AND COMPETITION. MY MUSE IS NOT A HORSE AND I AM IN NO HORSE RACE AND IF INDEED SHE WAS, STILL I WOULD NOT HARNESS HER TO THIS TUMBREL - THIS BLOODY CART OF SEVERED HEADS AND GLITTERING PRIZES. MY MUSE MAY SPOOK! MAY BOLT! MAY ABANDON ME COMPLETELY! SO ONCE AGAIN, TO THE PEOPLE AT MTV, I APPRECIATE THE ZEAL AND ENERGY THAT WAS PUT BEHIND MY LAST RECORD, I TRULY DO AND SAY THANK YOU AND AGAIN I SAY THANK YOU BUT NO...NO THANK YOU. YOURS SINCERELY, NICK CAVE 21 OCT 96.
|
|
|
Post by theblondette on Feb 25, 2009 8:59:22 GMT -5
Haha, a few. And of course, Stepehn King had the whole work-in-progress crazy fans thing with The Dark Tower! yeah! but he was clever enough to piss off those hardcore Dark Tower fans with his last 3 books so that we are no longer obsessessed and now just feel a bit sad when the series is mentioned Oh, lordy. SO MANY ISSUES in the last books. I still love the whole opus, but... I did get angry. There was actually a point in book 7 I got so upset and angry that I had to put the book down for a couple of weeks. I know that sounds completely insane!! Luckily, I would never be one of these nutso fans that would write in to complain. I might not like it, but I don't see how writing to Stephen King to say "why did you do ____?!" would help. Anyway, I put aside my rage and read the rest of the book, and a lot of it is beautiful. And it didn't make me swear off Stephen King! I think this is a helpful way to distinguish between passionate fans and crazy fans - their sense of entitlement. Stephen King doesn't owe me anything, but I sure do like it when he does the things I want I could talk about The Dark Tower a lot. This probably isn't the place for it, though!
|
|
|
Post by hoodrat on Feb 25, 2009 9:02:39 GMT -5
yeah! but he was clever enough to piss off those hardcore Dark Tower fans with his last 3 books so that we are no longer obsessessed and now just feel a bit sad when the series is mentioned Oh, lordy. SO MANY ISSUES in the last books. I still love the whole opus, but... I did get angry. There was actually a point in book 7 I got so upset and angry that I had to put the book down for a couple of weeks. I know that sounds completely insane!! Luckily, I would never be one of these nutso fans that would write in to complain. I might not like it, but I don't see how writing to Stephen King to say "why did you do ____?!" would help. Anyway, I put aside my rage and read the rest of the book, and a lot of it is beautiful. And it didn't make me swear off Stephen King! I think this is a helpful way to distinguish between passionate fans and crazy fans - their sense of entitlement. Stephen King doesn't owe me anything, but I sure do like it when he does the things I want I could talk about The Dark Tower a lot. This probably isn't the place for it, though! i was actually increasingly frustrated . . . until the very end. and finally comprehending his difficulties with endings in general. i actually left the series deeply sated. oops. hijack.
|
|
|
Post by theblondette on Feb 25, 2009 9:05:15 GMT -5
Ha, I should trawl through the general board to find my Dark Tower thread I tried to find.
I actually thought the series ended as well as could be expected. The final pages were a shock, but on reflection made a lot of sense. And yeah, I think Stephen King does have an issue with endings...
*forces self not to write yet another Dark Tower essay*
|
|
stevedave
True Scene Leader
Makin' meals out of marzipan
Posts: 747
|
Post by stevedave on Feb 25, 2009 15:56:45 GMT -5
YOURS SINCERELY, NICK CAVE 21 OCT 96. And that is why he's such a true legend and all out rock and roll good guy.
|
|
|
Post by howardfinkel483 on Feb 25, 2009 16:29:00 GMT -5
Heyy Brendan, good to hear from ya too. Prob. not making any Spring shows. Closest bet would be the Mtn Jam show but I'm putting a lot of money into seeing tMG solo tours this spring and Bruce come through the Northeast in May. (Have never seen Bruce before, was supposed to see him in the summer but was stuck in traffic for an hour and a half and my ticket-guy sold his to someone else) baltimore? c'mon. Heyy Hoodrat, Is there a Baltimore show I should be driving out to? (I'm not back on the east coast 'til the 1st week in May.)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2009 17:15:43 GMT -5
i liked the very end of the Dark Tower, but everything leading up to it - the Harry Potter stuff, the Doombots, the weapons ripped off from Phantasm but named after something from Harry friggin Potter, the lame confrontation with the Crimson King - pissed me off loved the use of Dylan quotes for foreshadowing am i the only one who connected THS' 'camps on the banks of the river' with the camps the Crimson King sets up for all of King's psychics? it just reminded me of them, especially with Sapphire's powers would have been nice to bring in Carrie or Johnny Smith for that bit but nah....
i think one thing that keeps THS critisim low is, so far, they've only released 4 albums. the more an artist does the more disagreement there is. i'm a Stephen King fan but i can probably point to as many short stories/books i dislike as ones i like. i'm a Dylan fan but i HATE Blowing in the Wind
so far i like everything THS has done but in 10 years when they've released an experimental funk album and endorsed some product i dislike that will probably change
|
|
|
Post by hoodrat on Feb 25, 2009 17:54:00 GMT -5
Heyy Hoodrat, Is there a Baltimore show I should be driving out to? (I'm not back on the east coast 'til the 1st week in May.) oops. i always see you over this side of the country. the show is 3/29. but it's going to be swell. and free.
|
|
|
Post by mhetrick14 on Feb 25, 2009 20:42:31 GMT -5
how can you hate blowing in the wind?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2009 19:17:08 GMT -5
boring, didactic, too hippy. with a few exceptions (Lonesome Death of Hattie Caroll, Masters of War) i don't dig 'protest singer' Dylan. he's too good to be bound to temporal poltics and things of this world
|
|
|
Post by mhetrick14 on Feb 26, 2009 20:20:12 GMT -5
he was a product of the zeitgeist re: those "protest" songs. he never wanted to be the speaker of the hippy movement. dude wasn't bound by anything.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2009 0:20:15 GMT -5
yeah but the song is bound by that movement, which is why he moved beyond it. it deals with temporal concerns and not the eternal/imaginative/personal realm
|
|