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Post by maestro on Feb 19, 2009 11:31:33 GMT -5
It never ceases to amaze me the way that some of the regulars around here act like you're shitting in the pool if you dare say something critical of the band.
Here's a newsflash: people are allowed to disagree. THS is easily my favorite band, but they ain't perfect and I don't agree with every move they make (touring with DMB) or song they record (Cheyenne Sunrise is a bad Eagles song at best).
It's unreasonable to think that you are always going to agree with the choices of people or bands that you love. I absolutely hate the fact that they are going to open for "Dave" for a number of reasons. Does it make me think a little less of the guys? Well, maybe, I haven't wrapped my head around it completely yet. But those thoughts (and the fact I'm expressing them on a message board) doesn't make my fandom illegitimate.
An unfortunate repeated theme on this board that has popped up again with this "Dave" discussion is the idea that certain types of criticism or discussion mean that people don't want to see The Hold Steady make money. Well, no. That couldn't be further from the truth. I respect like hell people who make a living with their art. But for me, and many others I'd imagine, its a worthy question to ask "where's the line?" Damned if I know where it is, that's something that you'll have a hard time getting even two people to agree on. But it's a question that, again, doesn't make my fandom illegitimate.
I started writing this post in the other "THS opening for DMB" thread. Before I was able to post it, the thread was locked. I'm not looking to flame the moderators, this place is run very well and I appreciate the sense of community that has sprung up even if I don't post often. But let's be adults here and allow some discussion even if it might be found distasteful by some. Otherwise it may be time to consider starting an off-site board where a person can rant about how much Cheyenne Sunrise sucks or whine and cry about how THS R SELLOUTZ 'til their little heart's content.
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Post by mike on Feb 19, 2009 11:37:13 GMT -5
well said, maestro, and welcome to the board. cheyenne sunrise IS kind of rubbish, and mod powers are really best saved for when they're needed.
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parock
Midnight Hauler
Posts: 1,000
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Post by parock on Feb 19, 2009 11:41:02 GMT -5
We're locking threads once they're not all hunky dory now?
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Mahoney
True Scene Leader
"you don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows"
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Post by Mahoney on Feb 19, 2009 11:42:25 GMT -5
about a david bowie album? damn, most of these will be closed right quick.
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Post by mike on Feb 19, 2009 11:42:41 GMT -5
i'm considering locking this thread just for shits and giggles.
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Post by motörben on Feb 19, 2009 11:46:09 GMT -5
Welcome back, maestro! Old school represent.
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Post by dustdudes on Feb 19, 2009 12:02:51 GMT -5
Cheyenne Sunrise is my favorite song on Stay Positive.
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parock
Midnight Hauler
Posts: 1,000
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Post by parock on Feb 19, 2009 12:05:51 GMT -5
Yeah, but what's your least favorite?
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Post by biblesalesman on Feb 19, 2009 12:07:01 GMT -5
Its not my favorite but I really like it.
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JonnyJay
True Scene Leader
It's official: US #180, raging at a show near you.
Posts: 809
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Post by JonnyJay on Feb 19, 2009 12:24:41 GMT -5
Cheyenne Sunrise is definitely a grower, but it's probably my least favorite of all the SP songs. Still good though.
As far as criticism goes, honestly, if the DMB shows were any other weekend other than the 12-14th, I wouldn't be angry at all. But I bought tickets to Bonnaroo, in part, because of the prospect of the boys showing up during The Boss' headlining slot. Why they would choose DMB over that is beyond me. But seriously, oppurtunities are oppurtunities. All this uproar over selling out and catering to frat boys is really quite silly. DMB, for better or worse, have one of the broadest fanbases of any band working, which means people from all walks of life are gonna be exposed to them, not just douchebags pounding Natty Lights. Will I be attending any of these shows? Hell no. Am I happy for them? Hell yes!
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Post by biblesalesman on Feb 19, 2009 12:36:27 GMT -5
Why would I wanna see "the boss" with THS. talk about a frat boy show. OLD frat boys.
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Post by WhiskeyDaisy on Feb 19, 2009 12:40:14 GMT -5
Cheyenne Sunrise is my favorite song on Stay Positive. Need I say more about that song? XO WD |
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Post by gushingblood on Feb 19, 2009 12:46:10 GMT -5
Cheyenne Sunrise>Navy Sheets
I am still confused about DMB. Bands support other bands, who cares?
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Post by jamesjesusangleton on Feb 19, 2009 12:51:35 GMT -5
Cheyenne As far as criticism goes, honestly, if the DMB shows were any other weekend other than the 12-14th, I wouldn't be angry at all. But I bought tickets to Bonnaroo, in part, because of the prospect of the boys showing up during The Boss' headlining slot. Why they would choose DMB over that is beyond me. But that's madness! There was never any suggestion of that happening: they didn't choose a support gig with DMB over jamming with Springsteen. They chose earning money from a support gig with DMB over staying at home watching TV. As for the original point: criticism is one thing, and discussion of the merits and demerits of songs and records and gigs is wholly appropriate, and I agree that there is too much WOOOH GREAT! even about things that might not be self-evidently beyond criticism. But the flaming of the band for doing a scant few support gigs in order to supplement their incomes seems to me to be not so much criticism as the temper tantrums of people who feel spurned. |
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JonnyJay
True Scene Leader
It's official: US #180, raging at a show near you.
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Post by JonnyJay on Feb 19, 2009 13:03:11 GMT -5
Cheyenne As far as criticism goes, honestly, if the DMB shows were any other weekend other than the 12-14th, I wouldn't be angry at all. But I bought tickets to Bonnaroo, in part, because of the prospect of the boys showing up during The Boss' headlining slot. Why they would choose DMB over that is beyond me. But that's madness! There was never any suggestion of that happening: they didn't choose a support gig with DMB over jamming with Springsteen. They chose earning money from a support gig with DMB over staying at home watching TV. As for the original point: criticism is one thing, and discussion of the merits and demerits of songs and records and gigs is wholly appropriate, and I agree that there is too much WOOOH GREAT! even about things that might not be self-evidently beyond criticism. But the flaming of the band for doing a scant few support gigs in order to supplement their incomes seems to me to be not so much criticism as the temper tantrums of people who feel spurned. I know, I know. It was total wishful thinking on my part, so when I saw the dates, it was more of "Ah, darn, there goes that possibility!" rather "I HATE THIS BAND NOW!" Whatever they choose to do is their perogative, and I'll still love them regardless. |
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Post by theblondette on Feb 19, 2009 13:03:18 GMT -5
james - yeah, agreed. I am actually in the camp of "reasoned criticism is good". But to me there is a difference between that and actually getting upset about things like tour choices. I get that people here are very invested in THS, but let's chillax. Reasoned debate is fine!
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Post by WhiskeyDaisy on Feb 19, 2009 14:18:32 GMT -5
This is not the first blow to my feeling about this band. This very well may be the final one. There are a lot of things at work here. A few people knew it all before, a few more asked and I was as open and honest as possible. I really do not like over half of the new album and my own personal opinion is that it's watered down THS, made for radio play and deals with themes in a way that I feel is offensive (Jamaica) or that I just don't relate to (Memphis). The seated/dry venues thing pissed me off. Why? Because those don't sound like choices the boys would make, those sound like chocies a shiny new fancy record company would make.
I have a few other personal reasons for my waning feelings about the band as well.
So, all of that coupled with the band caving to the shiny new fancy record company wanting them to play with a band they do not like (and, as I've said elsewhere on the boards, court people who hate me), I'm beginning to feel like these guys really aren't for me.
XO
WD
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Post by maestro on Feb 19, 2009 14:29:51 GMT -5
As for the original point: criticism is one thing, and discussion of the merits and demerits of songs and records and gigs is wholly appropriate, and I agree that there is too much WOOOH GREAT! even about things that might not be self-evidently beyond criticism. But the flaming of the band for doing a scant few support gigs in order to supplement their incomes seems to me to be not so much criticism as the temper tantrums of people who feel spurned. Flaming? Really? I haven't seen a single post saying "I now hate The Hold Steady and will no longer support them in any way" or slagging them personally. There's less negative hyperbole and overreaction on this board than any other I've ever seen. But if you put a bunch of people together who care about something then its a given that emotions are going to run high occasionally. Have you met WhiskeyDaisy? being in The Hold Steady is a job; let them do their job without carping about it. By all means moan when the records become rubbish or the gigs halfhearted, but don't moan about people trying to earn a living. Not to single you out, but this is exactly the kind of comment I addressed in the first post. It isn't wrong and shouldn't be off-limits to discuss whether its objectionable for them to tour with "Dave." To bring it up does not equal saying "HAY GUYS DON'T MAKE TEH MONEYS." That's absurd. I want them to be successful with their art so they'll keep making it. In fact, I generally find it offensive when people want to keep a band completely to themselves--even though I understand the desire. I'd much rather they keep at it and make some bank so they don't break up to take day jobs. Call me selfish but I want more music. But here's a devil's advocate argument for you to consider: does taking an opening slot for DMB hurt The Hold Steady "brand" more than the income and exposure from 6 shows helps their pockets? In the long run? I don't know that I have an opinion on the matter, but it seems a worthy question when you see posts like this: Only bummer is I've got alot of friends who I've been trying real hard to get into this band, to no avail. An opening spot for DMB will be the nail in the coffin on those efforts. |
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Post by mhetrick14 on Feb 19, 2009 14:45:45 GMT -5
dude, it's basically why i don't post here. differing views foster discussion, and there's really only one view that's allowed here.
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stevedave
True Scene Leader
Makin' meals out of marzipan
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Post by stevedave on Feb 19, 2009 14:48:21 GMT -5
Do Ya good music?
Yeah, Yeah,
That sweet soul music?
Yeah, Yeah,
Yeah, Yeah, Oh Yeah Yeah...
Hi Kids, Do you like Primus?
The Beatles? Just A Band
Led Zeppelin? Just A Band
Arctic Monkeys? Just A Band
Oh... Sorry I was humming some songs I like. We all friends again now?
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Post by motörben on Feb 19, 2009 14:55:17 GMT -5
This is not the first blow to my feeling about this band. This very well may be the final one. There are a lot of things at work here. A few people knew it all before, a few more asked and I was as open and honest as possible. I really do not like over half of the new album and my own personal opinion is that it's watered down THS, made for radio play and deals with themes in a way that I feel is offensive (Jamaica) or that I just don't relate to (Memphis). The seated/dry venues thing pissed me off. Why? Because those don't sound like choices the boys would make, those sound like chocies a shiny new fancy record company would make. I have a few other personal reasons for my waning feelings about the band as well. So, all of that coupled with the band caving to the shiny new fancy record company wanting them to play with a band they do not like (and, as I've said elsewhere on the boards, court people who hate me), I'm beginning to feel like these guys really aren't for me. XO WD Have the band changed label recently? I always felt like with Vagrant and with their management THS had got themselves in a good enough position to drop a 'dude, no' whenever they fancied. |
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JonnyJay
True Scene Leader
It's official: US #180, raging at a show near you.
Posts: 809
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Post by JonnyJay on Feb 19, 2009 15:29:38 GMT -5
deals with themes in a way that I feel is offensive (Jamaica) I still can't wrap my head around your issue with this song. It's definitely not flattering, but, like almost every THS song, it's a character study, and as sad as it is, there are girls out there who are down on their luck and desperate for attention, and men who are more than willing to take advantage of them. It's not condoning or condemning any pattern of behavior, on the men or woman's part, it's just presenting a sad situation. I don't see how this song is any more offensive than a line like, say "She went down like a chicken strip, dripping wet with the special sauce, she had a confidence smile and a nervous cough, and we got off!" |
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Post by blackbeard on Feb 19, 2009 15:30:06 GMT -5
This is not the first blow to my feeling about this band. This very well may be the final one. There are a lot of things at work here. A few people knew it all before, a few more asked and I was as open and honest as possible. I really do not like over half of the new album and my own personal opinion is that it's watered down THS, made for radio play and deals with themes in a way that I feel is offensive (Jamaica) or that I just don't relate to (Memphis). The seated/dry venues thing pissed me off. Why? Because those don't sound like choices the boys would make, those sound like chocies a shiny new fancy record company would make. I have a few other personal reasons for my waning feelings about the band as well. So, all of that coupled with the band caving to the shiny new fancy record company wanting them to play with a band they do not like (and, as I've said elsewhere on the boards, court people who hate me), I'm beginning to feel like these guys really aren't for me. XO WD WD, I don't completely agree with all of your points, but I mostly agree with quite a few of them. Thanks for posting this. I really, really, really thought that I was alone, especially re: being offended by a lot of the new record. Again, thanks for posting this. Nice to know that there's not (necessarily) anything wrong with me...! |
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Post by blackbeard on Feb 19, 2009 15:34:46 GMT -5
P.S. Thank you, maestro, for posting. You should do more of it. I think that you've made good, well-considered, measured points, in your posts. Good show. And regardless of my own opinions, I must say that you've a good way with words and the basic principles of reasoned argumentation. Kudos.
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Post by muzzleofbees on Feb 19, 2009 15:39:24 GMT -5
I haven't read the entire DMB thread, but I will say this on general basis: There must be allowed to front criticism here. I remember a debate regarding the mixing/mastering of Stay Positive, which also - from my point of view - got completely out of hand. Not because people fronting the criticism behaved like idiots, but because people who spends a lot of time on this board, and even has status as moderators, bizarrley refused peoples right to front those views. I found it absurd.
So, on general basis, please allow people to disagree.
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