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Post by st5801 on May 6, 2010 21:08:52 GMT -5
about the whole jessie=holly, there are people whose actual first name is disregarded and they go by the middle. could it be possible holly's name is Halejuhlah Jesicka _______? or maybe a more intimate friend calls her by her middle name because she likes it more. ex: my friends name is thomas emmit, but his close friends call him emmit. "Her parents named her Halleluah, but they kids all call her Holly." They may be the same person, but I don't think there are enough references yet to say for sure. I'm leaning towards Jessie being Holly's cousin, who is "banging around in restaurants", compared to Holly, who is "banging around in bars". I'm going to over analyze this if you want to know why I think this. There are several references to earlier songs: "But 22 and banging around in restaurants ain't that much prettier than bangin' around in bars."
"Forget all the boys that you met at the harbor. You're too hard already, you'll only get harder."Both of these refer to: "She looks shallow but shes neck deep in the steamy dreams of the guys along the harbor bars." (Certain Songs)"I should have kicked it with your cousin when I had the opportunity...I can't believe I worried about hurting you while you were banging around the bars trying to scratch up something new." (Modesto's Not That Sweet)In other words, Holly is the girl "banging around in bars". When Craig refers to Jessie in Hurricane J, he is comparing her to Holly, basically saying "just because you're banging around in restaurants, doesn't mean you're any better than your cousin, who is banging around in bars". Now in the line, "They didn't name her for a saint, they named her for a storm", Craig is once again contrasting Jessie and Holly. Notice every other verse Craig says "Jessie", but in this verse, he just says "her", which I think is his way of referring to Holly. I think he's pointing out what was already discussed in this thread, Holly was named for a storm, Hurricane Holly. Jessie wasn't named for a storm, but rather for a saint (Saint Jessica, who was a close friend of Jesus). Lyrically, the end of the song is very clever, because he just said, "they named Holly for a storm, not Jessie", but ends the song portraying Jessie's trainwreck of a life as "Hurricane Jessie's gonna crash into the harbor this summer", which is clever because there was no Hurricane Jessie. One other clever reference is: "I see the crowd you're hanging with and those kids don't see positive. Don't all those cigs make you tired?Refers to: "She only pays attention to the prices of cigarettes. She says she hopes they'll get cheaper. She only takes the pick me uppers, counteract all the put me to sleepers...bless the beasts and the children and the water and the waiters." (Sketchy Metal)Sorry for the wordy post, but I think since Craig puts so much effort into these lyrics, they're worth dissecting. ;D
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bigrob
Midnight Hauler
i guess i knew it was coming
Posts: 1,352
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Post by bigrob on May 6, 2010 21:18:14 GMT -5
I think you're onto something.
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Post by buddymo on May 6, 2010 21:49:47 GMT -5
If you were going to name your kid after a storm in 1977, I'm not sure why you'd choose Holly. It was a pretty lame hurricane - it only retained hurricane status for one day. www.stormpulse.com/hurricane-holly-1976I was hoping that it had made its way into the Gulf (and to Ybor City), but it didn't even get close.
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Post by chipsahoy240 on May 6, 2010 21:58:14 GMT -5
ST!!!! YOUR POST OPENED MY EYES> NEW IDEA!!!!!!
even though hurricane jessie does not exist, i agree with you about the comparing them through the saying, signyfying jessie was named for a saint.
BUTTTTTT!!!!!! at the end when he sings "hurricane jessie's gunna crash into the harbor" he is showing that jessie, origanlly the better of the 2, is no different then holly. the end?
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Post by zefferoni on May 6, 2010 22:17:45 GMT -5
"I should have kicked it with your cousin when I had the opportunity...I can't believe I worried about hurting you while you were banging around the bars trying to scratch up something new." (Modesto's Not That Sweet)In other words, Holly is the girl "banging around in bars". When Craig refers to Jessie in Hurricane J, he is comparing her to Holly, basically saying "just because you're banging around in restaurants, doesn't mean you're any better than your cousin, who is banging around in bars". "Jesse, I don't think I'm the guy" works with that line from Modesto, too. He should have kicked it with [Holly's] cousin when he had the opportunity, but he turned her away.
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meoskop
True Scene Leader
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Post by meoskop on May 6, 2010 22:46:26 GMT -5
Sometimes I picture Craig reading these threads going "Dude, it just sounded good." and sometimes I picture him posting crazy stuff in these threads just to spin the wheel. And sometimes I think all the walls of a room are mapped out with timelines, and callbacks, and cross references and it's a Darger-esque obsession.
Once again I like where st5801 is going. I don't think, if Jesse is Holly's younger cousin, that she thinks she's better than Holly - I think she has a hero worship going on.
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Post by st5801 on May 6, 2010 23:26:41 GMT -5
Sometimes I picture Craig reading these threads going "Dude, it just sounded good." and sometimes I picture him posting crazy stuff in these threads just to spin the wheel. And sometimes I think all the walls of a room are mapped out with timelines, and callbacks, and cross references and it's a Darger-esque obsession. Haha, very well put. Although I kind of wish it was the Darger version, based on interviews, I'm pretty sure its somewhat in the middle. In a recent interview Craig had a good quote, where he compared the storyline that spans all the albums to a Christmas tree that he is constantly adding ornaments to. Also, lines like "do you want me to tell it like its boy meets girl and the rest is history? Or do you want it like a murder mystery? I'm gonna tell it like a comeback story", suggests he might have had some vision of how the story would play out. Then again, he could revisit lines later and add story elements to them, which fits the Christmas tree metaphor.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2010 0:03:02 GMT -5
i had this theory that since Craig is friends with one of the guys from Lost, THS was mentioned in the show and this album is coming out around the end of the series that the THS/Lost mythologies would overlap somehow but I think that hasn't happened. I could be wrong
actually, i could totally see one of the characters saying 'Let me show you how a resurrection REALLY feels' before doing something brutal/badass. Bonus points if it's Locke/Smoke Monster
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Post by muzzleofbees on May 7, 2010 4:05:37 GMT -5
Can we agree on Jesse being Hollys cousin? I think a lot points in that direction.
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stringer
Has Status
Seein' my duty clear.
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Post by stringer on May 7, 2010 7:40:32 GMT -5
You know why I fucking LOVE CF? Check this. If Holly was born in '77, the year of Bat Out of Hell and In Color (both name-dropped on HIW, and probably the greatest year in rock, as catalogued on SP), she'd have been 17 in '94 (Crooked Rain, at least) and 33 in 2010 (when she died?). Which is why the eulogy on WCGT has early 90's references-- its everything a 17 yo girl could and would be spinning in 1994. And CF is remembering the innocent bed-room door closed girl before she went down to the camps and fell. First Night, anyone? What other '93-'94 references are on this album? Music, film, books? And lest you think I'm making this up, if our girl were born in '77, and her parents named her after the hurricane she was conceived in during the prior fall, anyone want to guess what the name of the hurricane was in that year? Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa say what now? so.. you say she maybe dies in 2010.. at age 33... "Lord, to be 33 forever"sorry if someone already said this by the way, I did look through but maybe I missed it
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Post by hoodrat on May 7, 2010 7:50:52 GMT -5
after slight discomfort, i think there is a really possibility that holly's dead. but perhaps it's a metaphorical death, to be followed by yet another resurrection. but i suspect there may be a limit on one person's resurrections . . .
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Post by theriver on May 7, 2010 7:53:10 GMT -5
after slight discomfort, i think there is a really possibility that holly's dead. but perhaps it's a metaphorical death, to be followed by yet another resurrection. but i suspect there may be a limit on one person's resurrections . . . A slight discomfort certainly has a sense of finality about it, much more so than previous closers in my opinion. Unless Holly is dead, and Jessie is the 'new Holly'....?
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Post by duende25 on May 7, 2010 10:53:56 GMT -5
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa say what now? so.. you say she maybe dies in 2010.. at age 33... "Lord, to be 33 forever"sorry if someone already said this by the way, I did look through but maybe I missed it A couple of days ago I took a long trip and re-listened to all the albums to try and see better how they link to HiW, and when I got to Stevie Nix I remembered the posts in this thread about Holly's age, had the same thought, and completely freaked out Also the preceding line 'the way the whispers bit like fangs in the last hour of the parties' fits pretty well with all the spooky imagery in A Slight Discomfort.
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duende
Cityscape Skin
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Post by duende on May 7, 2010 14:25:59 GMT -5
Sorry i started a similar thread! Didn't see this one.I love this new album,at first i didn't dig it at all but it's a grower and my favorite song is "Sweet part of the city". Critics bite big balls! I read a review by one that totally smashed on sweet part.F^^^ him.
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Post by doctoracula on May 7, 2010 18:29:19 GMT -5
"I should have kicked it with your cousin when I had the opportunity...I can't believe I worried about hurting you while you were banging around the bars trying to scratch up something new." (Modesto's Not That Sweet)In other words, Holly is the girl "banging around in bars". When Craig refers to Jessie in Hurricane J, he is comparing her to Holly, basically saying "just because you're banging around in restaurants, doesn't mean you're any better than your cousin, who is banging around in bars". "Jesse, I don't think I'm the guy" works with that line from Modesto, too. He should have kicked it with [Holly's] cousin when he had the opportunity, but he turned her away. this is a great call
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Post by Stainless on May 7, 2010 18:45:57 GMT -5
Just chiming in to say that Holly and Jesse being cousins, Jesse being the younger good kid, seems pretty probable. She's been getting mixed in with some of Hallelujah's friends and now one of them's worried she's going to crash into those harbor bars.
Man, Craig knows his craft. This new album is more mature, but it's still all about the seedy scene romance.
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Post by hoodrat on May 7, 2010 19:39:20 GMT -5
Sometimes I picture Craig reading these threads going "Dude, it just sounded good." and sometimes I picture him posting crazy stuff in these threads just to spin the wheel. maybe he's quiznos. it all begins to make sense.
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meoskop
True Scene Leader
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Post by meoskop on May 7, 2010 20:06:41 GMT -5
Sometimes I picture Craig reading these threads going "Dude, it just sounded good." and sometimes I picture him posting crazy stuff in these threads just to spin the wheel. maybe he's quiznos. it all begins to make sense. I love how I don't need to give you a map, it's like you have offbeat humor GPS
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Sunny D
Midnight Hauler
"We've gotta try a little harder..."
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Post by Sunny D on May 7, 2010 21:20:35 GMT -5
I'm really digging the whole Holly and Jesse thing. I was thinking some of the same things, actually.
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Post by laurenjean on May 8, 2010 0:51:34 GMT -5
after slight discomfort, i think there is a really possibility that holly's dead. but perhaps it's a metaphorical death, to be followed by yet another resurrection. but i suspect there may be a limit on one person's resurrections . . . I'm leaning this way too, but I really want Holly to be alright. I love "a slight discomfort" as both a song and an album closer. I'm not okay with what it communicates about Holly's life post-resurrection.
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meoskop
True Scene Leader
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Post by meoskop on May 8, 2010 1:57:04 GMT -5
IDK that I agree that Slight Discomfort has to be post resurrection. I lean toward Holly is dead (just like Paul) but where does resurrection place in the known references to it? I think there is more lyrical support for these being the events just prior to First Night.
Slight Discomfort - "And you say you tried Jesus. / But it was too inconvenient."
First Night - "And then last night / She cried and she told us about Jesus"
We've assumed that those lines in First Night meant she was witnessing, but with the subsequent Jesus / Judas storyline, it could as easily be that First Night is the night after Slight Discomfort.
Of course, she could still be dead and the narrator might not know yet.
First night - "Holly's not invincible / in fact she's in the hospital"
I still maintain "This shouldn't hurt. / But you might feel a slight discomfort" is the medical team speaking. (And it hurts. But they always say it)
But then again, by the time of the resurrection, she's been "gone for years" and "St. Peter had me on the queue."
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Post by spanishjohnny on May 8, 2010 2:52:44 GMT -5
Ok this may by a shot in the dark but I've been working on this connection some so here it goes...
"Certain Songs" is Jesse's mom giving her advice and "40 Bucks" is about Jesse. "Heaven is Whenever," is about Jesse's relationship with her mother.
"Certain Songs" is referenced in "40 Bucks" in the lines:
"She’s always been a pretty big fan. Certain songs get scratched right in."
Jesse is remembering the words her mother told her. Jesse's mom is a big fan of music from the seventies, as show in the lines:
"Her mother loves the seventies, The leather vests and the Dungarees."
Note all the seventies references in "Certain Songs" and the seventies references in "We Can Get Together." The connection between WCGT and 40 Bucks is strengthened in the reference to "a pure and simple love." WCGT isn't actually about two people sitting in a room listening to music, it's about Jesse sitting on her floor listening to her mom's records from the 70s and listening to her own records from the 90s and talking to her mom about them, only her mom isn't actually there. Her mom is dead and this is Jesse's way of communicating with her.
Oh and the lines in Certain Songs:
She looks shallow, but she's neck deep in the steamy dreams Of the guys along the harbor bars.
... is about Jesse's mom.
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Post by bschultz27 on May 8, 2010 3:51:05 GMT -5
I still maintain "This shouldn't hurt. / But you might feel a slight discomfort" is the medical team speaking. " Agree agree agree. After various surgeries, the doctor speak is the first thing I thought of after hearing A Slight Discomfort.
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Sunny D
Midnight Hauler
"We've gotta try a little harder..."
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Post by Sunny D on May 8, 2010 18:30:49 GMT -5
In this main Holly story, are we including Sapphire? Or is she in a separate universe?
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Post by SantaAnaSavedMe on May 8, 2010 22:28:58 GMT -5
I definitely feel like Jesse is the girl from Certain Songs. We know from Hurricane J that she's "a pretty good waitress" and that she's "banging around in restaurants" so she'd know "the bartenders and the kitchen workers and the bartender's friends" from CS.
In HJ, the narrator asks "Why do you keep going to his car?". In CS, "she goes low on the seats when she gets high in her car," but probably does it in "his" car, too.
st5801 has already mentioned the "harbor" connection between the two songs, and I think is correct about Jesse and Holly's relationship as cousins.
So, if it's Jesse playing Paradise by the Dashboard Light on the jukebox in Certain Songs, then is it safe to assume it's also Jesse spinning records in WCGT, with its Paradise reference? Whether she's reminiscing over Holly or her mother, as spanishjohnny has suggested, I'm not sure, although there's certainly a CS/40 Bucks/WCGT connection.
What I've really been pondering is this: if Jesse is the girl from CS, then what about the reference to CS in Cattle:
"silly rabbit. tripping is for teenagers. murder is for murderers. and hard drugs are for bartenders. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned that before."
The narrator would be the same character in CS, Cattle, and Hurricane J. In Certain Songs, we learn who's into the hard drugs at the restaurant. In HJ, the narrator tries to have a heart-to-heart with Jesse concerning her involvement with this negative crowd. Cattle might then follow the summer of Jesse's crash into the harbor and now he's kind of giving up on her, reminding her in a more flippant way that he's gone over this with her already as he watches her sink deeper in her emulation of Holly.
However, he refers to whoever he's addressing in Cattle as "you in the corner with a good looking drifter," so I'm not sure if it's really Jesse.
But, if so, then what about "murder is for murderers"? Foreshadowing One for the Cutters? In Hurricane J, the narrator asks "don't all the cigs make you tired?" In One for the Cutters, the townies "smoke cigs until they're sick." Did Jesse pick up her smoking habit at the townie parties? Is she the girl from Cutters? Couldn't a girl who wonders "if heaven's hypothetical" in Hurricane J also ponder the riddle "when one townie falls in the forest can anyone hear it"? "Why do you keep going to his car?" in HJ; "Sniffing at crystal in cute little cars" in Cutters. Could the good looking drifter in Cattle be the murderer from Cutters?
Or maybe somuchjoy is right and I just spotted the license plate ARW 357.
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