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Post by kayfaberaven on Mar 5, 2021 12:04:05 GMT -5
Whoa, great little nugget from the Positive Posting FB group . . . A member there pointed out that "Pretty Many People," in addition to a Spices lyric, is also the title of a 2014 album by a band called Three Man Cannon. I hadn't heard of that band, so I looked 'em up. They're from Scranton. That's very interesting and it answers my internal query as to why Craig used that strange phrasing.
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Post by doctoracula on Mar 5, 2021 12:38:56 GMT -5
I feel silly for not recognizing that reference, given that I’ve seen that band a lot and the label that released that record also puts out my band’s stuff
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Post by doctoracula on Mar 17, 2021 9:08:08 GMT -5
The new playlist they put up confirms that the line about an Underdog shirt is a reference to the band and not the cartoon
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Post by thebambino on Mar 17, 2021 20:58:42 GMT -5
Absolutely! Craig seems to be a guy who was a classic music nerd back in the day, and while the 90s never became a secon brit invasion, I guess a lot of bands and singles got through to people paying attention. And Tad have mentioned several places that he's an Oasis fan. The most obvious reference to that for me is Touchless, who's very, very close to being a straight steal from Some Might Say. YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by kayfaberaven on Mar 18, 2021 12:47:52 GMT -5
The guy in Heavy Covenant is cheating on his wife, right?
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Post by star18 on Mar 18, 2021 14:55:46 GMT -5
I don't think he's actually cheating on her, but using the opportunity of a business trip to indulge some vices she doesn't know about.
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Post by star18 on Mar 18, 2021 14:57:21 GMT -5
Fun little fact about "Dayton's," from Parade Days. I was listening to an 2019 interview with Craig on the "Working Songwriter" podcast, and he was talking about the phenomenon of "camping out" for tickets to shows back in the 80s/90s. He specifically mentioned that he and friend of his camped out outside Dayton's in a mall to buy REM tickets.
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Post by skepticatfirst on Mar 19, 2021 0:12:11 GMT -5
The guy in Heavy Covenant is cheating on his wife, right? I don't think so, but serious question: do you mean 1) the guy who could tell that it was difficult? 2) the guy who said he'll ask about that other stuff? 3) the guy who sells software made for offices? 4) the guy who sings the songs? 5) the guy up in some music club? 6) the taxi driver?
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charlie
Sniffling Indie Kid
Posts: 213
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Post by charlie on Mar 19, 2021 7:56:03 GMT -5
When Heavy Covenant dropped as a single, I said I'd be happy if it was like, my seventh-favorite song on the record.
It's now been stuck in my head for the better part of a week. Grower for sure.
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Post by kayfaberaven on Mar 19, 2021 9:54:15 GMT -5
The guy in Heavy Covenant is cheating on his wife, right? I don't think so, but serious question: do you mean 1) the guy who could tell that it was difficult? 2) the guy who said he'll ask about that other stuff? 3) the guy who sells software made for offices? 4) the guy who sings the songs? 5) the guy up in some music club? 6) the taxi driver? I certainly don't dive as deep on lyrics as you do, sir, but my reading is that the guy who could tell that it was difficult is the guy who sells software made for offices. He's also the same guy who found his friend on the phone and is at the Hotel Mariposa with the wine glass and the ashtray. He's having a drug-fueled hook-up with that "friend" so he calls his wife (or significant other) and says "I'm sorry my meeting got delayed/I'm going to be another night."
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Post by skepticatfirst on Mar 19, 2021 21:06:09 GMT -5
I certainly don't dive as deep on lyrics as you do, sir, but my reading is that the guy who could tell that it was difficult is the guy who sells software made for offices. He's also the same guy who found his friend on the phone and is at the Hotel Mariposa with the wine glass and the ashtray. He's having a drug-fueled hook-up with that "friend" so he calls his wife (or significant other) and says "I'm sorry my meeting got delayed/I'm going to be another night." Gotcha. I asked because I wanted to know where you were tunneling into the song from, to see if I could say anything sensible about it, by thinking through it aloud if nothing else. >> my reading is that the guy who could tell that it was difficult is the guy who sells software made for offices. I think that's right, and I think you're right that the friend is the girl at the Motel Mariposa. But my take on the rest is that it's the other way around: the guy's "wife" (as he calls her in The Feelers) *is*, unfortunately for him, really just his "friend" at the moment; he's following her around, trying to get through to her, while she's fucking dealers for meth. (The "I" in "I know the perfect place to go" is the direct continuation of the "he" of "He said he'll ask about that other stuff," in other words, a dealer, and the powerful party in what is in fact a pretty heavy covenant.) Thinking about this and a couple of other recent posts on ODP, I realized that with these new songs I always go sideways first --- looking at connections to other songs to try to build up solid ground --- and only then try to work out what's happening in the song I'm listening to. YMMV, obviously. But I thought it might be interesting for others to look at some of those connections just in their own right, without even trying to take it any further here: - "And the ashtray in the kitchenette": this is the coffee can from Curves & Nerves. Lots of other connections between C&N and HCovenant: Holly fucking gangsters, focused on getting someone to buy her some, with calls from a friend coming in on a phone that she won't pick up. - "difficult/ To bring that sort of subject up": compare "I danced around the subject/ I swam in the Pacific/ Like the westernmost American" [Lanyards]. Another connection to California, where Holly's located in C&N. - "difficult/ To bring that sort of subject up": for what sort of subject that might be, compare "And she didn't bring it up with any sort of plan in place/ She said she was just putting out the feelers/ When she asked if she could choke you ..." [Feelers] - "That's a pretty heavy covenant/ To make with someone powerless": compare "Lord grant me the power to stop these hands from shaking" [FFarm], "We were all powered up on some new upper drug" [MN], "power to the people makin money with their mouths" [Manpark], etc. - "He said he'll ask about that other stuff/ If you're still prepared to pay for it": compare "She said, You know I'm down to pay for it. She said, Just grant me some indulgences [BCrosses]. ("down") - "Motel Mariposa": Spanish "mariposa" comes from the phrase "M aria, posate!" meaning "Mary, alight!" (wiktionary en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mariposa#Spanish; Craig frequently uses Spanish to sneak in unnoticed meaning). Reference to Mary. - "A little south of downtown on the frontage road": we've already seen dealer Charlemagne "fooling around" on the frontage road with Holly/Mary in Don't Let Me Explode. - "Seeing stories in the the scorch marks/ Hearing bass lines in the buzzing of the lights": Delores (Mary) has the scorch marks, and loves the little flames, in Epaulets. Juanita bathes in bass lines in Back In Blackbeard. Jenny listens to the drum and bass, and thinks the flame looks beautiful, in Secret Santa Cruz. - "we're going to need another night/ We're gonna stay a second night": compare "Saturday night was a runway that extended into Sunday/ And sometimes Monday" [JAJ]. - "Then I asked him about the songs he did": this looks a lot like the psychopath who can sing in Me & Magdalena (Mary), who in turn is identified as the rich guy (camel/eye of a needle) appearing all over ODP. - "almost forty bucks": see Forty Bucks. Oddly, prices haven't changed in a while ... There's more, but that's a start, hopefully interesting. (If anyone's interested, I've got three posts coming up in the Alright Alright thread that connect most of the above to the story: TWO TWENTIES, FRONTAGE ROAD, and SHEPARD'S MANSION.)
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Post by muzzleofbees on Mar 21, 2021 1:58:49 GMT -5
This reminds me that I've been thinking about that "choke" part, which seems very specific, and at first sounded like something new in the story. But it could connect to "You're hot and you're scared and there's not enough air" [Separate Vacations], and that song in general fits well with the theme you've suggested, of someone's wife/girlfriend who really isn't at the time, or anymore. It could also add some depth to "some nights it hurts a bit to breathe" [Cheyenne Sunrise], allthough that seems to be connected to the coughing.
And in the minor departmenet: The entire space theme in Denver Haircut + "shot ourselves out into outer space" [Sweet Part Of The City]
There's also a vague connection to Girls Like Status here, in the suggestion of personal traits leaving physical marks, who turns into symbols of that specific trait ("Your laugh leave laugh lines/ your love leaves bright bruises"). And to push it a little further, the title suggest a relevance for the entire power/powerless theme.
Also: "How tomorrow's pretty much today, and I don't predict a major change" [The Feelers], dusk/dawn from Stevie Nix and several Lifter Puller references to nights bleeding into the next day.
I've always wondered what Nathan needed 90 bucks for.
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Post by muzzleofbees on Mar 21, 2021 15:00:49 GMT -5
Muscially, I'm connecting with this album on a deeper lever than I would have dared to imagine. It's just so rich, dynamic and well-built, and I keep discovering small details and hooks. I don't think I would have wanted them to sound any other way at this point of their career.
I keep coming back to the same favourites: Family Farm have faded a little bit from my intial excitement, but it's still a top level uptempo THS song. Heavy Covenant is so claustrophobic, yet so full of fresh air, and I think it's the perfect example of how the band have evolved while still sounding like Hold Steady. Laynyards is so damn beautiful AND powerful, and the way they turn up the intensity in the chourses (and espcially when those guitars hit in the second of them) and is perfect as a midtempo banger. I've had some ups and downs with Spices, but right now, I'm at the point where I adore it. Again, it's they way they take ut up a notch in the chours, and the way that tiny explosion is so well juxtaposed with the grinding and reeeally good-sounding groove from the go. And Unpleasant Breakfast is just an unreal little gem to me. Simple, smart, delicate, with a direction and a purpose, and with Craig at his absolute best as a singer too. I just love how he packs these lines with emotion, and that he does in both an artful pleasing way, but also technically really interesting. The way he piles never-ending lines on top of each other with an impeccable flow, while still sounding both nostalgic, sad, ironic, knowing-better, at peace - I just love it.
Lots of stuff to appreciate in The Feelers, The Prior Procedure and Riptown too. And I've comed to enjoy the sleazy and really downer like vibe of Hanover Camera. Me & Magdalena is stil the one I like the least, but there's plenty of cool parts in it too.
I don't know if this ranking exercise make sense anymore, cause at this point, Hold Steady is something different than the band I fell in love with (hell, I'm pretty different too). And I think that in itself, that they in fact were able to make a (in a narrow sense) transformation like this, is maybe what's saying the most about how much I love it. Right now, I think it's closer to how I feel about the first three than anything after them.
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Post by kayfaberaven on Mar 21, 2021 20:08:11 GMT -5
[/quote]I certainly don't dive as deep on lyrics as you do, sir, [/quote] See what I mean? But I'm really glad that you're here...the part of the song that I can't quite wrap my head around, even using my own more vague, unconnected, narrative is the meaning of "To make with someone powerless". I can't figure out who it is that is powerless--unless it's just "powerless" in the sense of being subject to one's addictions.
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Post by nosferatu on Mar 22, 2021 5:34:28 GMT -5
See what I mean? But I'm really glad that you're here...the part of the song that I can't quite wrap my head around, even using my own more vague, unconnected, narrative is the meaning of "To make with someone powerless". I can't figure out who it is that is powerless--unless it's just "powerless" in the sense of being subject to one's addictions. Or a reference in the “powered up”/“100,000 watts of power” /‘power/wealth/mental health’ canon. Could also be a reference to someone not into God?
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Post by muzzleofbees on Mar 22, 2021 9:27:25 GMT -5
See what I mean? But I'm really glad that you're here...the part of the song that I can't quite wrap my head around, even using my own more vague, unconnected, narrative is the meaning of "To make with someone powerless". I can't figure out who it is that is powerless--unless it's just "powerless" in the sense of being subject to one's addictions. Or a reference in the “powered up”/“100,000 watts of power” /‘power/wealth/mental health’ canon. Could also be a reference to someone not into God? I'm not sure, but in Family Farm, You Gotta Dance and Massive Nights, "power" is always associated with drugs. It's tempting to suggest an easy switch between "power" and "powder", but it's a little out of character, as "powder" is a separate concept in the lyrics (Candy's Room, The Swish). Anyway: The Family Farm image is pretty straight forward. The shakes are due to not getting drugs, The Lord is the dealer and the power being granted, has to be drugs. If so, maybe "powerless" in Heavy Covenant simply mean someone without drugs? And maybe even that their in a situation where having drugs available is what separates the people in power from the powerless?
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Post by skepticatfirst on Mar 22, 2021 21:03:02 GMT -5
This reminds me that I've been thinking about that "choke" part, which seems very specific, and at first sounded like something new in the story. But it could connect to "You're hot and you're scared and there's not enough air" [Separate Vacations], and that song in general fits well with the theme you've suggested, of someone's wife/girlfriend who really isn't at the time, or anymore. It could also add some depth to "some nights it hurts a bit to breathe" [Cheyenne Sunrise], allthough that seems to be connected to the coughing. FWIW, I do think it's connected to something specific, although I think the meaning can be deciphered without knowing those specifics. I should revisit Separate Vacations, those are good thoughts. And in the minor departmenet: The entire space theme in Denver Haircut + "shot ourselves out into outer space" [Sweet Part Of The City] Yeah, I think those things refer to the same thing (and "tiny white specks in a bright blue planet" [MPADJs] etc. too). I've always wondered what Nathan needed 90 bucks for. Yeah, hah. I'm tempted to say inflation, but it's Craig and there's probably a reason why it's exactly 90. But everyone else seems to have Juanita's "for 40 then I'll wipe down all your wounds with scotch and soda" as the Main Amount you gotta get ahold of.
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Post by skepticatfirst on Mar 22, 2021 21:20:34 GMT -5
See what I mean? But I'm really glad that you're here...the part of the song that I can't quite wrap my head around, even using my own more vague, unconnected, narrative is the meaning of "To make with someone powerless". I can't figure out who it is that is powerless--unless it's just "powerless" in the sense of being subject to one's addictions. I don't want to get too exclusive about this, both because it's Craig and double meanings happen, and because I've been wrong before. But yes, my take is that the "powerless" person is the one who's addicted, needs drugs, and has no money. The times that we were powerless were times that I remember best. When it first came on it felt just like a blanket. (compare "first it feels like a prick and then it hits you like a jumbo jet [FB]) Once we had a little bit we pretty much just wasted it. (a little bit of drugs: see Jeep Beep Suite, and theholdsteady.proboards.com/post/121262/thread) Traded in our tickets for drinks and little trinkets. That scene back in the city was the opposite of freedom. We were always so damn broke. It was this whole dependent fallacy [Esther] Or a reference in the “powered up”/“100,000 watts of power” /‘power/wealth/mental health’ canon. Could also be a reference to someone not into God? Oh man, Midnight Hauler reference! this is new territory for me. The thing is, that the Ballad Of The Midnight Hauler too is a song about drugs: He was a TNT trucker and he missed the turn And he probably should've died, he was badly burned [BMH] TNT='fentanyl/derivatives' (ONDCP web.archive.org/web/20041127224823/http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/pdf/street_terms.pdf ; DEA ndews.umd.edu/sites/ndews.umd.edu/files/dea-drug-slang-terms-and-code-words-july2018.pdf), and compare: she says it's bad to get burned she says it's great gettin high [PRock] And then: "So this one goes out to Denver Dick He's feeling all frustrated up on I-76" And he set the needle down on "It's Time For Me To Fly" Some say rumor, some say legend He's usually been seen with some wild women He's slow to get around, but he's still a pretty speedy guy [BMH] "Denver"=rocky mountain High. "I-76"=runs one way downhill from Denver. Denver Dick is coming down ... "And he set the needle down on 'It's Time For Me To Fly'"= he applied the needle to a vein and got ready to "fly." "a pretty speedy guy": the guy uses speed. I still think that when Craig says "power/wealth/mental health" he's just using double meaning to put a respectable front on some very dark content.
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Post by nosferatu on Mar 23, 2021 9:35:33 GMT -5
See what I mean? But I'm really glad that you're here...the part of the song that I can't quite wrap my head around, even using my own more vague, unconnected, narrative is the meaning of "To make with someone powerless". I can't figure out who it is that is powerless--unless it's just "powerless" in the sense of being subject to one's addictions. I don't want to get too exclusive about this, both because it's Craig and double meanings happen, and because I've been wrong before. But yes, my take is that the "powerless" person is the one who's addicted, needs drugs, and has no money. The times that we were powerless were times that I remember best. When it first came on it felt just like a blanket. (compare "first it feels like a prick and then it hits you like a jumbo jet [FB]) Once we had a little bit we pretty much just wasted it. (a little bit of drugs: see Jeep Beep Suite, and theholdsteady.proboards.com/post/121262/thread) Traded in our tickets for drinks and little trinkets. That scene back in the city was the opposite of freedom. We were always so damn broke. It was this whole dependent fallacy [Esther] Or a reference in the “powered up”/“100,000 watts of power” /‘power/wealth/mental health’ canon. Could also be a reference to someone not into God? Oh man, Midnight Hauler reference! this is new territory for me. The thing is, that the Ballad Of The Midnight Hauler too is a song about drugs: He was a TNT trucker and he missed the turn And he probably should've died, he was badly burned [BMH] TNT='fentanyl/derivatives' (ONDCP web.archive.org/web/20041127224823/http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/pdf/street_terms.pdf ; DEA ndews.umd.edu/sites/ndews.umd.edu/files/dea-drug-slang-terms-and-code-words-july2018.pdf), and compare: she says it's bad to get burned she says it's great gettin high [PRock] And then: "So this one goes out to Denver Dick He's feeling all frustrated up on I-76" And he set the needle down on "It's Time For Me To Fly" Some say rumor, some say legend He's usually been seen with some wild women He's slow to get around, but he's still a pretty speedy guy [BMH] "Denver"=rocky mountain High. "I-76"=runs one way downhill from Denver. Denver Dick is coming down ... "And he set the needle down on 'It's Time For Me To Fly'"= he applied the needle to a vein and got ready to "fly." "a pretty speedy guy": the guy uses speed. I still think that when Craig says "power/wealth/mental health" he's just using double meaning to put a respectable front on some very dark content. Couldn’t agree more! Also in reference to the above $90 thing, my instinct says there’s something in the Chips Ahoy! $900, and the relationship between the numbers 5 and 6, like in Chips Ahoy! and Denver Haircut (horses/races, hours/planets) that would lead me to the right reference but I just can’t make it stick.
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Post by skepticatfirst on Mar 23, 2021 19:13:19 GMT -5
Couldn’t agree more! Also in reference to the above $90 thing, my instinct says there’s something in the Chips Ahoy! $900, and the relationship between the numbers 5 and 6, like in Chips Ahoy! and Denver Haircut (horses/races, hours/planets) that would lead me to the right reference but I just can’t make it stick. Yeah, you must be right about this, but I can't see it either. I got His visits, they only take five or six minutes [LID] but other than that, nothing.
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Post by tableinthecorner on Mar 23, 2021 23:36:39 GMT -5
Couldn’t agree more! Also in reference to the above $90 thing, my instinct says there’s something in the Chips Ahoy! $900, and the relationship between the numbers 5 and 6, like in Chips Ahoy! and Denver Haircut (horses/races, hours/planets) that would lead me to the right reference but I just can’t make it stick. Yeah, you must be right about this, but I can't see it either. I got His visits, they only take five or six minutes [LID] but other than that, nothing. This made me think of your drug slang post on Alright Alright, Skeptic. Here's a link for anyone who hasn't read it. "Fives" and "six" are both amphetamine, and we've seen Craig use this terminology in LDoL, Viceburgh, and 212 Margarita, but it's interesting that they're used in conjunction in those other three songs. There still could be more to that relationship, but this is what came to mind.
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Post by nosferatu on Mar 24, 2021 3:33:56 GMT -5
Yeah, you must be right about this, but I can't see it either. I got His visits, they only take five or six minutes [LID] but other than that, nothing. This made me think of your drug slang post on Alright Alright, Skeptic. Here's a link for anyone who hasn't read it. "Fives" and "six" are both amphetamine, and we've seen Craig use this terminology in LDoL, Viceburgh, and 212 Margarita, but it's interesting that they're used in conjunction in those other three songs. There still could be more to that relationship, but this is what came to mind. Ooh, good spot! Also to throw it in there, the “plethora of poker chips” and “chips ahoy” could be another thread... leads me to “pickle chips” yet another “p” turning up, with “popcorn and potato chips”, “wipe that chip off your shoulder”.
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Post by nosferatu on Mar 24, 2021 3:38:16 GMT -5
Fun little fact about "Dayton's," from Parade Days. I was listening to an 2019 interview with Craig on the "Working Songwriter" podcast, and he was talking about the phenomenon of "camping out" for tickets to shows back in the 80s/90s. He specifically mentioned that he and friend of his camped out outside Dayton's in a mall to buy REM tickets. That’s a really neat link - probably covered already but aside from Blaine, Minnesota, there are Northtown malls in loads of places, including Dayton and Spokane.
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Post by skepticatfirst on Mar 24, 2021 5:53:37 GMT -5
This made me think of your drug slang post on Alright Alright, Skeptic. Here's a link for anyone who hasn't read it. "Fives" and "six" are both amphetamine, and we've seen Craig use this terminology in LDoL, Viceburgh, and 212 Margarita, but it's interesting that they're used in conjunction in those other three songs. There still could be more to that relationship, but this is what came to mind. Thanks for the link. :-) I hadn't even thought of this! I'm a little hesitant to read a drug meaning into these lines, mainly because I feel like I have to maintain a really high bar if I want the things that I definitely *am* arguing for to be taken seriously. For example, it's not hard to argue that the examples from Viceburgh and LDoL use "fives" and "six" in their drug slang senses --- the LDoL "six" is one item in a list of other slang terms ("rocks"=meth, "blues"=meth), and the Viceburgh "fives" clearly has something to do with an expectation of drugs ("sugar packets"): yeah these hesher guys are trying to give me high fives but they don't stick the sugar packets inside [Viceburgh] down by the docks we pull the rocks from their socks they pulled the six from their shoes, spilled the blues from his hatband [LDoL] But the examples we listed upthread *could* just be regular old five and six. And for comparison, we could look at six and seven and see a similar pattern: met up with six stick tweakers and a seventh grade teacher [Brokerdealer TLOUBL] To me it just felt like six or seven seconds [A&H] Vietnamese and six or seven VB's [Apollo Bay] Obviously "seven seconds" is in there with an allusion to 7 Seconds, and it could be the case that there's some drug slang in there too. I just don't see a pattern here yet. Ooh, good spot! Also to throw it in there, the “plethora of poker chips” and “chips ahoy” could be another thread... leads me to “pickle chips” yet another “p” turning up, with “popcorn and potato chips”, “wipe that chip off your shoulder”. Chips, on the other hand, are definitely shermans (joints laced with PCP), with an important role in the LP story that gets recycled into THS as well. (FWIW, I'm working through the details in the Alright Alright thread now.)
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Post by star18 on Mar 24, 2021 12:07:12 GMT -5
Oh boy, if we start applying numerology to the lyrics this is gonna go even deeper hahaha.
I'd be fascinated if there's something there, but there's another way to think about $900 -- even without any hidden/symbolic meaning, it still actually tells you a lot about the characters.
$900 is a good amount of money for these ne'er-do-wells in the 90s/00s. But we also know that she's not really risking it, because of the clairvoyance -- it's a sure thing. So if these people had access to more money, there's no reason they shouldn't throw down five grand or whatever. So we can assume that's basically all she has.
$900 works perfectly because it's enough that your winnings would let you live high on the hog for a while, but at the same time, if you only have $900 to your name, you're not doing super-great in the big picture.
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