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Post by theothermatt on Feb 22, 2021 9:11:52 GMT -5
LANYARDS. HOLY SHIT.
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Post by timmytva on Feb 22, 2021 9:42:13 GMT -5
I cant place the song the keyboards in Hanover Camera reminds me, but I love it...this album is amazing. Not sure where i would rank it compared to the others since this is my first full listen, but it is really something special. Neither could I, and then I worked it out. For me at least it’s “Get It Right Next Time” by Gerry Rafferty! Edit: with a debt of gratitude to Breakdown by Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers. YESSSS! As a certified Petty fanboy, I immediately thought "sounds like something Benmont would play". Tim
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Post by timmytva on Feb 22, 2021 9:55:45 GMT -5
Listened twice on a drive from Northern Virginia to Harrisburg, PA and back to see my mom. Found myself feeling a fair amount of "meh". Listened two more times since on headphones in my home office. Two things become abundantly clear:
1. Though I love my Golf GTI, its stereo SUCKS 2. I was noodling on a lot of mental and emotional shit on the PA drive and didn't give ODP full attention
To point #2, ODP doesn't reward inattentive listening, at least early on. It doesn't have the visceral riffage and snarling vocals of AKM, SS, or BAGIA. It's layered, intricate, and yes, mature. Once I stopped listening for the next Hoodrat Friend or Constructive Summer and started listening for its own sake, it sunk in.
IMHO, Bobby is the MVP of the album. Yes, it's great having Franz back. The piano and keys add dimensions that were missing on HIW and TD. But Bobby's drumming is incredible - subtle and nuanced, a bit funky in places, much more than four-on-the-floor barroom stomp.
More to say, but gotta jump on a Zoom call from my office in the mansion on the mountain.
Tim
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Post by violentredvisions on Feb 22, 2021 13:08:52 GMT -5
I've also made a quick guide to lyrical references to other songs in the catalog. Hi Muzzle. Ive only just started doing the reference hunting after just trying to listen for a few days, and Im not very good at it, but the first really obvious one seems to be Lanyards giving a heavy nod to the Curves and Nerves/Modesto period... C&N... “holly went to hollywood. it looked nothing like she thought it would. she didn't get to the part with the studios. she went straight to video” Modestos not that sweet “ I heard that kid from california turned out to be an asshole I think I could have told you. You left with burning bridges but you never saw the beach. You had stars in your eyes but modesto's not that sweet. When you only know one guy and he disappears for days at time Lanyards.. “ When you're stuck out in the middle you just figure that there's something you're missing. But it turns out that California is just tripping and disinterested kissing. Back in my hometown there was nothing but the hum of the locusts and the rest of my life to get used to being washed out of showbiz. I was down around the docks but I never saw anyone surfing, from a distance it looked pretty much perfect but it's different in person” Just something to add to the list.
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Post by muzzleofbees on Feb 22, 2021 14:03:16 GMT -5
I've also made a quick guide to lyrical references to other songs in the catalog. Hi Muzzle. Ive only just started doing the reference hunting after just trying to listen for a few days, and Im not very good at it, but the first really obvious one seems to be Lanyards giving a heavy nod to Curves and Nerves... C&N... “holly went to hollywood. it looked nothing like she thought it would. she didn't get to the part with the studios. she went straight to video” Lanyards.. “ When you're stuck out in the middle you just figure that there's something you're missing. But it turns out that California is just tripping and disinterested kissing. Back in my hometown there was nothing but the hum of the locusts and the rest of my life to get used to being washed out of showbiz. I was down around the docks but I never saw anyone surfing, from a distance it looked pretty much perfect but it's different in person” Just something to add to the list. Yeah, I mentioned the one about studios/video. And there's lots of this who resemble earlier reports of trips to California. Eureka and Modesto's Not That Sweet is also in this category. But then again, there's that line in Hot Fries where "some boderline whore" asks Charlemagne how he's liking California, which makes him cry. I'm still not sure if anyone in this universe actually WENT to California, or if it's just another "state of..." something. And that line about "back in my hometown" make me doubt that this is another Holly-in-Hollywood song. Her hometown isn't Minneapolis, it's Lynn, Massachussetts. And when she apparently leaves for California, it's Minneapolis she leaves behind. Holly is neither associated with "kissing" in any of the older songs, and she's not especially scared about what's going down at the harbour bars either. That's more Charlemagne/Jesse territory. But I'm not sure of any of this - I just want to keep some options open.
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Post by tableinthecorner on Feb 22, 2021 15:09:45 GMT -5
And that line about "back in my hometown" make me doubt that this is another Holly-in-Hollywood song. Her hometown isn't Minneapolis, it's Lynn, Massachussetts. And when she apparently leaves for California, it's Minneapolis she leaves behind. I think I have some decent evidence on Lanyards being a Holly-in-Hollywood song: - We know the narrator of Lanyards is from the middle of the US (we are led to believe Independence, MO) - The other Missouri reference in THS lyrics comes in Resurrection with "St. Louis had enslaved me." This song is about Holly and I think Craig is referring to St. Louis Park in Minneapolis, meaning a Holly/Missouri connection is reasonable even though she never actually lived in Missouri - Following that line in Resurrection, we have "Santa Ana saved me." I'm not sure if I have a full understanding of this line yet, but Santa Ana is in California so we have another example of Holly going from MO to CA. - If I remember correctly the Here Goes thread claims that upon returning from Cali, Holly started living by herself, citing the end of CatCT. "Now I'm back in Independence, Missouri" could be because she is independent and living on her own. - The narrator of Lanyards left on the Fourth of July and returned on Thanksgiving. These are two days famous for parades in the US. In Parade Days we have a similar line relating to independence: "the house is all hers now." I'm not 100% confident in all of this, mainly because the line between Mary and Holly is pretty blurred to me in Craig's lyrics. That being said, I do think there are ways to connect Lanyards to Holly. I'm curious to see if anyone can build on this.
Edit: I did see skepticatfirst say that Hollywood wasn't literal, like you mentioned, a few days ago, so when he gets to that in the Alright Alright thread it may prove me all wrong. I still think that the "independence" aspect of things will be able to link us to a character, though, whether it be Mary or Holly.
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Post by muzzleofbees on Feb 22, 2021 15:27:40 GMT -5
- If I remember correctly the Here Goes thread claims that upon returning from Cali, Holly started living by herself, citing the end of CatCT. "Now I'm back in Independence, Missouri" could be because she is independent and living on her own. Good point! I'm not even sure I understand the lyrics at face value, so I'm by NO means certain about who's the narrator of the song, and who the "she" is.
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Post by doctoracula on Feb 22, 2021 19:14:46 GMT -5
I’m not totally sure why, but I was really surprised to hear a Joy Division reference in “the prior procedure”
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2021 20:48:22 GMT -5
For some reason that lyric didn’t just get the actual song stuck in my head but also The Wombats’ ‘Let’s Dance to Joy Division’...
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Post by skepticatfirst on Feb 22, 2021 22:52:33 GMT -5
And that line about "back in my hometown" make me doubt that this is another Holly-in-Hollywood song. Her hometown isn't Minneapolis, it's Lynn, Massachussetts. And when she apparently leaves for California, it's Minneapolis she leaves behind. I think I have some decent evidence on Lanyards being a Holly-in-Hollywood song: - We know the narrator of Lanyards is from the middle of the US (we are led to believe Independence, MO) - The other Missouri reference in THS lyrics comes in Resurrection with "St. Louis had enslaved me." This song is about Holly and I think Craig is referring to St. Louis Park in Minneapolis, meaning a Holly/Missouri connection is reasonable even though she never actually lived in Missouri - Following that line in Resurrection, we have "Santa Ana saved me." I'm not sure if I have a full understanding of this line yet, but Santa Ana is in California so we have another example of Holly going from MO to CA. - If I remember correctly the Here Goes thread claims that upon returning from Cali, Holly started living by herself, citing the end of CatCT. "Now I'm back in Independence, Missouri" could be because she is independent and living on her own. - The narrator of Lanyards left on the Fourth of July and returned on Thanksgiving. These are two days famous for parades in the US. In Parade Days we have a similar line relating to independence: "the house is all hers now." I'm not 100% confident in all of this, mainly because the line between Mary and Holly is pretty blurred to me in Craig's lyrics. That being said, I do think there are ways to connect Lanyards to Holly. I'm curious to see if anyone can build on this.
Edit: I did see skepticatfirst say that Hollywood wasn't literal, like you mentioned, a few days ago, so when he gets to that in the Alright Alright thread it may prove me all wrong. I still think that the "independence" aspect of things will be able to link us to a character, though, whether it be Mary or Holly.These are good arguments, and I would really like to revisit this when Alright Alright gets to the West Coast. You guys have got me thinking about Independence a lot here. Not to head straight for the most conservative reading, but I wonder if "independence"='cleaned up', as opposed to 'dependent' [SBS, Esther]? You probably remember where you slept last night; but you forgot the Alamo!
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Post by doctoracula on Feb 22, 2021 23:27:30 GMT -5
Apologies if someone else already mentioned this, but what are the odds that the line “ And first they're into death and then they're into dust” is about the protopunk band from Detroit (Death) and Marky Ramone’s band before he was a punk, Dust? Both are from the early 70s, so would chronologically be a precursor to disco.
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Post by actslapless on Feb 23, 2021 0:14:12 GMT -5
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Post by muzzleofbees on Feb 23, 2021 4:07:38 GMT -5
I’m not totally sure why, but I was really surprised to hear a Joy Division reference in “the prior procedure” Yeah, they feel like a band who's a part of a different world than the rest of the stuff happening. But it felt even weirder to me when Stone Roses popped up in The Most Important Thing.
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Post by star18 on Feb 23, 2021 10:23:39 GMT -5
I haven't heard it mentioned a lot in reviews, fan posts, etc. but "The Prior Procedure" is a real gem. The interplay between the guitars, drums, horns, and organ during the chorus is just gorgeous. And "but these people seem really open minded" is one of those lowkey amazing CF lines.
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Post by somuchjoy on Feb 23, 2021 12:43:43 GMT -5
Cutters/wcgt/parade days —all look to me like attempts on the same theme
Same 17 year old girl/same summer/same over the shoulder polaroid taken on the precipice. Same attempt to capture a queen, dictate perspective, float out an earnest wish for closure.
The Keds line is top 10, and it’s hard to overestimate the technical lyrical puzzle box genius of all the heaven songs in wcgt, but I’m thinking “parade days” is finally CF’s perfect circle/song for both acquaintances and friends. Devastating detail, precise diction, nothing particularly clever, showstopping or even quotable, and still, without any need to have ever heard another THS song, presenting a bottled up nostalgia and dread that crushes the rib cage with the inevitability of it all. The story of boys and girls and name your many poisons — Oxy/mental illness/abuse/misogyny/failure — in America.
It’s been so long that I forgot how to post. But I just needed to say that y’all are witnessing a once in a generation songwriter.
Back to under the bridge.
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Post by muzzleofbees on Feb 24, 2021 4:26:48 GMT -5
I remember the time when a Pitchfork review was a cultural happening, but it's nice to see they're still able to appreciate Hold Steady. And while I think the emphasis on Franz is a little too heavy (I guess every review need an angle), I think they are pretty accurate this time around. pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/the-hold-steady-open-door-policy/
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Post by redwino on Feb 24, 2021 6:13:56 GMT -5
Apologies if someone else already mentioned this, but what are the odds that the line “ And first they're into death and then they're into dust” is about the protopunk band from Detroit (Death) and Marky Ramone’s band before he was a punk, Dust? Both are from the early 70s, so would chronologically be a precursor to disco. Interesting, makes sense. I was wondering what was meant with 'dust'.
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Post by nosferatu on Feb 24, 2021 6:22:13 GMT -5
I’m not totally sure why, but I was really surprised to hear a Joy Division reference in “the prior procedure” Yeah, they feel like a band who's a part of a different world than the rest of the stuff happening. But it felt even weirder to me when Stone Roses popped up in The Most Important Thing. There’s a musical theory I’ve been nurturing for a while that I’m not quite ready to put more time into, but there are a lot of musical “word painting” and knowing musical in-jokes/self-referential moments in the whole Hold Steady catalogue. Manchester, England is a hugely important musically influential touchstone, for all of the smokescreen of E Street Band this and Replacements the other, Stone Roses and Oasis actually crop up very often musically. Take for example Killer Parties. On Positive Jams (the hold steady’s podcast accompaniment to the anniversary release of AKM), Craig mentions the bass line and vibe are a “stone roses thing”, and guitar lick wise there are definitely nods to Noel Gallagher’s everyman guitar playing. I dunno, perhaps this is too much of a metatextual stretch [paging skeptic], but in my experience of being from the U.K. and travelling around the USA, every now and then I would bump into a committed Anglophile who would blow me away because they knew bands I had no idea had made it anywhere near successfully over in the states. Perhaps this allusion is part of one of the characters’ personalities - one of them being an Anglophile would definitely explain how Heavenly pop up on HIW too. Another point about Joy Division is that Ian Curtis committed suicide on the eve of their first US tour, perhaps there’s something in that given the John Berryman poet/tortured artist archetype from BAGIA.
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Post by muzzleofbees on Feb 24, 2021 6:37:19 GMT -5
Yeah, they feel like a band who's a part of a different world than the rest of the stuff happening. But it felt even weirder to me when Stone Roses popped up in The Most Important Thing. There’s a musical theory I’ve been nurturing for a while that I’m not quite ready to put more time into, but there are a lot of musical “word painting” and knowing musical in-jokes/self-referential moments in the whole Hold Steady catalogue. Manchester, England is a hugely important musically influential touchstone, for all of the smokescreen of E Street Band this and Replacements the other, Stone Roses and Oasis actually crop up very often musically. Take for example Killer Parties. On Positive Jams (the hold steady’s podcast accompaniment to the anniversary release of AKM), Craig mentions the bass line and vibe are a “stone roses thing”, and guitar lick wise there are definitely nods to Noel Gallagher’s everyman guitar playing. I dunno, perhaps this is too much of a metatextual stretch [paging skeptic], but in my experience of being from the U.K. and travelling around the USA, every now and then I would bump into a committed Anglophile who would blow me away because they knew bands I had no idea had made it anywhere near successfully over in the states. Perhaps this allusion is part of one of the characters’ personalities - one of them being an Anglophile would definitely explain how Heavenly pop up on HIW too. Another point about Joy Division is that Ian Curtis committed suicide on the eve of their first US tour, perhaps there’s something in that given the John Berryman poet/tortured artist archetype from BAGIA. Absolutely! Craig seems to be a guy who was a classic music nerd back in the day, and while the 90s never became a secon brit invasion, I guess a lot of bands and singles got through to people paying attention. And Tad have mentioned several places that he's an Oasis fan. The most obvious reference to that for me is Touchless, who's very, very close to being a straight steal from Some Might Say. Never thought about Stone Roses and Killer Parties/Positive Jam, but when you mention it, Killer Parties have a lot of I Wanna Be Adored and Made Of Stone in it. To me, it's more a feeling that these characters seem to live a life where bands like Stone Roses and Joy Division are a little bitt off what they're exposed to. It's not wrong in any way, and not like I'm pointing out an anachronism in a movie or something like that. And I love how it sort of tilts the image in a certain direction.
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Post by nosferatu on Feb 24, 2021 6:42:38 GMT -5
There’s a musical theory I’ve been nurturing for a while that I’m not quite ready to put more time into, but there are a lot of musical “word painting” and knowing musical in-jokes/self-referential moments in the whole Hold Steady catalogue. Manchester, England is a hugely important musically influential touchstone, for all of the smokescreen of E Street Band this and Replacements the other, Stone Roses and Oasis actually crop up very often musically. Take for example Killer Parties. On Positive Jams (the hold steady’s podcast accompaniment to the anniversary release of AKM), Craig mentions the bass line and vibe are a “stone roses thing”, and guitar lick wise there are definitely nods to Noel Gallagher’s everyman guitar playing. I dunno, perhaps this is too much of a metatextual stretch [paging skeptic], but in my experience of being from the U.K. and travelling around the USA, every now and then I would bump into a committed Anglophile who would blow me away because they knew bands I had no idea had made it anywhere near successfully over in the states. Perhaps this allusion is part of one of the characters’ personalities - one of them being an Anglophile would definitely explain how Heavenly pop up on HIW too. Another point about Joy Division is that Ian Curtis committed suicide on the eve of their first US tour, perhaps there’s something in that given the John Berryman poet/tortured artist archetype from BAGIA. Absolutely! Craig seems to be a guy who was a classic music nerd back in the day, and while the 90s never became a secon brit invasion, I guess a lot of bands and singles got through to people paying attention. And Tad have mentioned several places that he's an Oasis fan. The most obvious reference to that for me is Touchless, who's very, very close to being a straight steal from Some Might Say. Never thought about Stone Roses and Killer Parties/Positive Jam, but when you mention it, Killer Parties have a lot of I Wanna Be Adored and Made Of Stone in it. To me, it's more a feeling that these characters seem to live a life where bands like Stone Roses and Joy Division are a little bitt off what they're exposed to. It's not wrong in any way, and not like I'm pointing out an anachronism in a movie or something like that. And I love how it sort of tilts the image in a certain direction. Yeah, me too! I just wonder whether the tilt towards these bands in particular is a feature of one of the characters in the steadyverse... Regarding “Touchless” - absolutely, first thing that struck me is it’s basically an oasis song!
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Post by somuchjoy on Feb 24, 2021 12:18:45 GMT -5
There’s a musical theory I’ve been nurturing for a while that I’m not quite ready to put more time into, but there are a lot of musical “word painting” and knowing musical in-jokes/self-referential moments in the whole Hold Steady catalogue. As with any good story, there are two important Easter eggs in AKM that took me forever to find. Song 1. Album 1. There is a timeline for the whole story. I guess it starts in the 70s. Cf is pretty up front about that in hindsight. Certain songs. She was born into the songs that everyone finally sings along. Cf then namechecks two songs from from 1977. Cf is pretty upfront about specific songs acting as time stamps. Oftentimes the named song or band is contemporaneous to the place in the story loosely grouped in the late 70s, 1992-6 (when holly turned 17 and went down to the camps), banging around California/west coast in late 90s, 2000ish (when she turned 33) and then the end. But sometimes they’re just music the character might listen to at the time (everyone has their joy division period) or as part of a playlist (every song referenced on WCGT would be on a 1994 playlist I think). The music itself also acts as a time signature. Whether cf writes the lyrics and the band comes up with a sound from that period on the timeline or the other way around, they tend to match. Heavy covenant, eg is vintage lifter puller riff, meaning late 90s timeframe lyrics. So if you hear oasis, or cheap trick, or zeppelin, it’s not unintentional. Start thinking of Holly as the personification of modern rock. Born in the 70s, fell to shit in the 90s, etc. the music will match. Did I say once in a generation?
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Post by doctoracula on Feb 24, 2021 13:37:44 GMT -5
That interpretation only works if you think rock music fell to shit in the 90s though!
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Post by somuchjoy on Feb 24, 2021 14:04:22 GMT -5
That interpretation only works if you think rock music fell to shit in the 90s though! Well, there was Nirvana. And STP. And Creed. And Hootie. Dead fat and/or rich. Wild dogs would disregard those bones.
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Post by muzzleofbees on Feb 24, 2021 15:55:49 GMT -5
There’s a musical theory I’ve been nurturing for a while that I’m not quite ready to put more time into, but there are a lot of musical “word painting” and knowing musical in-jokes/self-referential moments in the whole Hold Steady catalogue. The music itself also acts as a time signature. Whether cf writes the lyrics and the band comes up with a sound from that period on the timeline or the other way around, they tend to match. Heavy covenant, eg is vintage lifter puller riff, meaning late 90s timeframe lyrics. So if you hear oasis, or cheap trick, or zeppelin, it’s not unintentional. Well, this sure is an interesting thought. We know for a fact that Craig writes the lyrics after the music's allready in place, at least that was the case up untill Open Door Policy. I think Party Pit have been mentioned as the only exception, where Franz wrote the music to fit a pre-written Craig lyric. So if there's a connection between the musical content and the references in the lyrics, that should be all Craig. About We Can Get Together: I guess you might have been talking about "mid 90s" and not 1994 specifically, but the Heavenly song is from 1996.
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Post by doctoracula on Feb 24, 2021 16:35:14 GMT -5
That interpretation only works if you think rock music fell to shit in the 90s though! Well, there was Nirvana. And STP. And Creed. And Hootie. Dead fat and/or rich. Wild dogs would disregard those bones. If dead, fat, or rich status disqualifies bands from being good, then the 70s don’t fare much better!
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