A "Hanover"-Sized Rabbit Hole

[star18]

After being initially grabbed by some of the bigger tunes, I've started really appreciating "Hanover Camera" more and more this week. Musically, it's such a cool groove; folks have pointed out the similarities to 70s Steely Dan or Boz Scaggs, and that horn lick is infectious.  Then I started thinking about the lyrics on a deeper level, and went down a funky little rabbit hole I thought some of you might enjoy.

So first of all, what's the deal with "Hanover?"  It's the first time we've heard that city in the THS catalogue. 

(Before we even look at geography, it occured to me that in the context of the title, it's kind of a half-pun. The song includes the lyric that "it ends . . . when Heather puts her hand over the lens."  So does "hanover camera" just mean "hand over camera?" Well that's kind of funny but it's not a satisfying enough reason to hang the song on that title.)

The most famous Hanover is the 3rd-biggest city in Germany, but Craig's geography references typically stay U.S.-based (besides "her parents are in Paris," do we ever hear of other European locales?)  So where is Hanover in the U.S?  Well, turns out there are a lot.  Via Wiki:

United States

Hanover, Connecticut
Hanover, Illinois
Hanover, Indiana
Hanover, Kansas
Hanover, Maine
Hanover, Maryland
Hanover, Massachusetts
Hanover, Michigan
Hanover, Minnesota
Hanover, New Hampshire
Hanover, New Mexico
Hanover, New York
Hannover, North Dakota
Hanover, Ohio
Hanover, Pennsylvania
Hanover, Virginia
Hanover, Wisconsin

Interesting right off the bat that several THS frequent-fliers appear here.  Minnesota is the most likely one, obviously -- but Massachusetts, Michigan, Pennsylvania, New York, Virginia, Ohio, and New Mexico all make appearances in various THS tunes.  I thought it might be fun to see if there were any noteworthy connections to be made, and I came up with a couple interesting things.

From a Wiki-level skim, I didn't find much of interest about the Michigan, New York, Virginia, or Ohio "Hanovers," so let's set those aside.

Hanover, New Mexico has the note that the original settler was "driven away by Apaches" which could tie into the ongoing cowboys-and-indians metaphor, but there's not much of that imagery elsewhere in this song or album so that also seems like a big stretch.

The other three matches, however -- Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and Minnesota -- all have some pretty cool connections back to other parts of the story.

Minnesota is obviously Craig's bread & butter so let's start there. Hanover, MN is a tiny city that's about 30 miles NW of Minneapolis (reminds me of the distances Craig has talked about driving previously w/r/t Sep Sunday, etc.).  The drive from Hanover into the Twin Cities takes you pretty damn close to Osseo, so don't get stuck up up there.

The Wiki article on Hanover, MN is fairly thin, but does contain this nugget at the bottom (emphasis mine):

Miss Hanover Royalty Program

The Hanover Harvest Festival Royalty Program was begun in 2009 by Jackie Heinz who currently runs the program. To participate in the contest, requirements include being a rising senior in high school up to 22 years old, and having attended school in Hanover or lived in the area, or attended a local private school. The contest consists of contestants being judged on various criteria including accomplishments, community activities, club/office membership and future goals pertaining to education and career. They are also judged on poise, dress, answers to interview questions and speech. Each year, two girls are crowned Miss Hanover and Hanover Princess. Miss Hanover has the opportunity to be invited by the Aquatennial Royal Court in Minneapolis to participate in Aquatennial Queen of the Lakes Scholarship Program.

Well boom, there we go. Direct correlation to the Queen of the Lakes reference from "Parade Days," (plus all the "princess" and "king and queen" imagery from other songs.)  So that's gotta be it, right?

Well, not so fast.

Hanover, MA is a small city about 25 miles south of Boston (the opposite direction of Lynn). It had a few connections to the Revolutionary War, but is mostly known for a historical shipbuilding industry.  And then I found this gem (again, emphasis mine):

Hanover's early industry revolved around farming, small mills, anchor forging, and several shipbuilding yards along the North River. The ship named "The Grand Turk" was built in Thomas Barstow's Two Oaks shipyard along the North River. The ship was used by Elias Hasket Derby and was later adopted as the logo for Old Spice. The "first" Grand Turk as it was known, was the first U.S. ship to trade with China and was a part of the Derby Mercantile House.

So for those keeping track at home, that's a "specific clipper ship" that was built in Hanover, at the Oaks shipyard which was used in the spice trade, and later memorialized in the logo for "Old Spice." And it's true that the Grand Turk's trade with China predates the adoption of the actual "Open Door Policy" by a century or so, but still, there's a pretty cool connection there to the titles of both "Spices" and the album itself. I know there's been speculation that the "specific clipper ship" was the Ambassador, but what if it's The Grand Turk?

OK, bear with me for one more. After the promising connections to MN and MA I didn't expect to find much here, but this might be my favorite of all.

Hanover, PA is also a small town on the very southern border of Pennsylvania.  It is not particularly close to Scranton or Philadelphia, although it is quite near Maryland (which as far as I know doesn't appear in the lyrics anywhere, but could be a possible connection to Mary the character.)

Besides the location, there are three possible tie-ins here.

First of all, Hanover was the site of an "inconclusive" Civil War battle that occurred in 1863, directly prior to Gettysburg. Civil War references happen more in Lifter Puller and Craig's solo stuff, so we know that's a point of interest for him and one possibility.

However, there's also a much more recent history of violence -- in 1991, Hanover saw some local race riots break out when white residents were upset about interracial couples and Black men hanging out in the public park.  The Wiki article uses some truly striking language so I'm going to quote a bigger block here, but think about how much of this language maps onto THS scenes in general:

On July 13, 1991, Hanover's town square was the site of a two-day race riot. During the summer, white residents were upset by the presence of young Black men in the town square, who had begun to gather there after the local parks were temporarily closed. In addition, two young, interracial couples had been seen walking downtown. In the lead-up to the riot, white residents spat on the Black men visiting their girlfriends in the town square, while the Baltimore Sun reported that there had been tension "building for several weeks," and the Hanover Evening Sun reported that at least one resident "had heard rumors throughout the week that a motorcycle gang was coming into town to start trouble with a few interracial groups of juveniles." Other residents were quoted stating that the biker gang's explicit purpose was to "take back the town." On July 13th, by around 11:00pm, an estimated 200 to 400 white people gathered on one side of the town square, with a much smaller group of a "half dozen" Black juveniles on the other side, with various police forming a line between the two. Both groups shouted at one another throughout the night. Eventually, a car full of Black juveniles pulled up alongside the bikers before some of the bikers began chasing the car down the alleyway, which elicited a cheer from some members of the white crowd. The police line struggled to contain the rioters and eventually ordered the smaller, Black crowd to disperse just after 11:00pm. As the smaller side dispersed, police lost control of the rioters, who began to fight using weapons like "baseball bats, knives, tire chains, bricks and hockey sticks," though there was only one serious injury reported. Eleven people were arrested during the first night; on the second day, a state of emergency was declared by Mayor W. Roy Attlesberger, who instructed police to arrest anyone on the streets after midnight. Police shut down major roadways into Hanover. Nevertheless, many minor skirmishes broke out, and ultimately thirty six people were arrested including the eleven from the day prior. Media reports following the two-day event described the town square as looking like a "battlefield."

Whoa.  Now, the violence in THS songs isn't overtly tied to race, but the juxtaposition of a biker gang, improvised weapons, police not being able to control the kids fighting in the streets . . . that's all familiar territory.

Well, I figured that's all I would get out of Pennsylvania, and then, way at the bottom of the Wiki, was this:

The bowling scene in the movie Girl, Interrupted was filmed in the basement of the Sheppard Mansion. The mansion and its twin, Myers Mansion, across town both still have bowling alleys in their basements.

What.

WHAT.

So, "Girl, Interrupted" is about a young woman who attempts suicide, ODs, and ends up in a psychiatric ward. That's awfully familiar territory, especially as relates to "Family Farm."  But still, one scene filmed in a basement, that's shaky at best.

But "Sheppard Mansion" is a whole other story.  We have the literal phrase "walking through Sam Shepherd's mansion" from "Ascension Blues." We also have pretty good evidence that "Shepherd" is the leader of the Cityscape Skins ("I Hope This Whole Thing," / "Saddle Shop"), so it follows that various "meetings in mansions," ("Snake in the Shower," "The Feelers") may have well taken place in "Shepherd's Mansion."

So what's the deal with this (actual) place? Well, I found a local news blurb about it. (https://www.ydr.com/story/news/history/blogs/york-town-square/2014/08/08/how-to-see-the-magnificent-sheppard-mansions-interior/31680559/)

Built in 1913, the historic Sheppard Mansion was originally owned by H.D. Sheppard and his wife Henrietta Sheppard. After Henrietta died in 1960, the family vacated the home, leaving it empty for decades. 

Empty for decades, huh.  Guess the house is all hers now. I wonder who lives there now? 

In 1998 great-granddaughters Kathryn Hoar and Heather Lunn restored the mansion and made it a bed and breakfast.

Sadly, the article does not contain a photo of Ms. Lunn's hands.

[muzzleofbees]

Haha, wow. This was an amazing read. I got actual chills when I got to the part about the mansion. If it's a coincidence, it's a pretty crazy one.

I did a couple of Google searchs all way back when the tracklist was released, with the assumption that this wasn't Hanover, Germany (which was my immediate association). I should have remembered that about every other European city have a name sibling in USA.

But I found this, which I guess other have stumbled over too: camera-wiki.org/wiki/Hanover

There's not too much about this type of camera on the internet, but it has to have some relevance, you would think - not only within that song, but with the continous references to taking photos in other songs too.

[star18]

Thank you! There's definitely a lot here to pick over.

I had no idea about the actual camera -- my knowledge of photography is pretty limited -- but you're totally right. It looks like this.
 




Kinda hard to imagine our modern day heroes using one of these, but note that Wiki does tell us that:

Hanover is the brand or type name of a magazine camera, probably of British or German origin.

So perhaps this is the camera for when . . . all you really want is to be in magazines?

[tableinthecorner]

If this isn't intentional it might literally be the world's biggest coincidence. I could definitely see Craig finding Sheppard's Mansion in Hanover, PA and then basing other lyrics on the album around other Hanovers in the US, but this type of depth in songwriting really is unheard of regardless (not to mention the overarching story elements that come with it!). And major props to you for finding all this — it's extremely impressive detective work and, like muzzle said, it made for an exhilarating read.

[muzzleofbees]

It's almost too funny that two of the streets closest to Sheppard's Mansion is High Street and Stoner Avenue.

[skepticatfirst]

This is fantastic, thanks for doing the legwork and writing it all up!

Sadly, the article does not contain a photo of Ms. Lunn's hands.

Visible in photos #28 and #29 here (link): no henna in sight. :-)

But I found this, which I guess other have stumbled over too: camera-wiki.org/wiki/Hanover

This is a great find, actually --- with Craig's titles it seems like there's always at least two things going on, and knowing that there is actually such a thing as a Hanover Camera makes it a lot easier to be confident in references to Hanover, XX as a separate component of whatever it is he's putting together here. (I hadn't realized what was going on with "Spices," either, but you just cracked that open --- a reference to the album's 19th-century China trade theme on the one hand, and to drugs on the other: for "spicy kind"=meth see LISTED in the Alright Alright thread.)

If this isn't intentional it might literally be the world's biggest coincidence.

I really want to think through all of this a little more, but I'm leaning toward intentional --- that is, it's a coincidence that Craig discovered at some point, and then found a way to work into the narrative. (Like Hurricane Holly, which I'm certain now is something he discovered after he'd already written the THS story, and after he'd given Holly a name and approximate birth date.)

Here's my thinking:

The original reference to "Shepard's mansion" comes with Ascension Blues in 2010.  This appears to have been introduced in the first place because of a different coincidence:

1) the title of the film in which it appears, Days of Heaven, fits the Heaven motif of HiW ("heaven" appears in the album title itself, TSPotC, Smidge, RP, HJ, OWL, and of course many times in both WCGT and ABlues itself);

2) there's a scene in the same film, the confrontation of Abby's lover Bill (Gere) with her husband, the rich farmer (Shepard), in the farmer's mansion (wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_Heaven), which fits the story Craig is telling. That this is so is now confirmed by the detail of the Shepard's mansion scene in The Feelers: "she had a couple problems/ I guess the big one is she's someone else's wife." 

Craig is thinking about Heaven, hits on this as a great fit for what he's doing, decides to use it. The farmer in the film doesn't have a name, but no worries: he just refers to the characters by the actors' names, fitting that into the television/vision framing. Then, because Craig is never done exploiting every drop of significance in every word, he pushes on, and connects "Shepard" to the gang leader in The Outsiders, giving evidence of the connection by adding the reference to Diane Lane, who played Cherry in the movie version of the book, into the lyrics as well. 

While I can see all of that coming together for a genius like Craig, it's already insanely complicated, and I don't think it's possible that there's a Hanover, PA angle built into Ascension Blues on top of everything else. 

I *do* however think it's possible that, in the 10 years since Ascension Blues, Craig got wind of the existence of an actual Sheppard Mansion in Hanover, PA, and, not being able to ignore the fact that God keeps throwing these things at him, spent some time working hard on ways to work it in. 

It seems plausible to me (for substantial reasons that I'll lay out in the Alright Alright thread when we get there) that the location of the Sheppard Mansion in Hanover, PA, suggested to him a connection to Hanover, MN, and that --- in the same way that he can be presumed to have combed through lists of "Heaven" titles, names, etc. for HiW --- he combed through lists of Hanover titles, names, etc. until he hit on the Hanover Camera to tie it all together. 

Which means that he probably has the Hanover, MA article in his back pocket, too, even if we might not necessarily need this connection to substantiate the link of the spice trade with the clipper ship, the Open Door Policy, etc.

And then he put "hand over the lens" in there because he could. 

Does that sound plausible?

[nosferatu]

Feb 27, 2021 10:17:20 GMT -5 skepticatfirst said:

Here's my thinking:

The original reference to "Shepard's mansion" comes with Ascension Blues in 2010.  This appears to have been introduced in the first place because of a different coincidence:

1) the title of the film in which it appears, Days of Heaven, fits the Heaven motif of HiW ("heaven" appears in the album title itself, TSPotC, Smidge, RP, HJ, OWL, and of course many times in both WCGT and ABlues itself);

2) there's a scene in the same film, the confrontation of Abby's lover Bill (Gere) with her husband, the rich farmer (Shepard), in the farmer's mansion (wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_Heaven), which fits the story Craig is telling. That this is so is now confirmed by the detail of the Shepard's mansion scene in The Feelers: "she had a couple problems/ I guess the big one is she's someone else's wife." 

The big problem is... Mary is already the wife of Joseph. You may have touched on this before!

[star18]

Does that sound plausible?

At this point in my obsession the line between creative genius and coincidence and magic is pretty freaking blurred for me!  So, sure.

I do think the "Heather Lunn" thing is pure coincidence, but when you see something like that when you're already deep in a rabbit hole, it sure does give you a little thrill. Also, I realized today that the line is "specific British clipper ship" so that's a knock against my Grand Turk connection.

Sometimes I do wonder how much of this can be tied back to the fact that there are ~120 songs at this point, most of which are pretty goddamn lyrically dense, so when you're looking to make a connection to something else in the catalogue, there's just a lot of possibilities and thus a pretty good chance of stumbling over something unintentional.  You can get caught up in some complicated things. But the line about the python in the shower is an (unusually obvious) connection back to "Snake in the Shower," so that feels like a pretty bright line to Sheppard Mansion.

(On a real-world note, it's kinda interesting that Franz has called out "Snake in the Shower" as a tune that he wished made the cut for TTTP, and then here we have that same motif on the most keyboard-centric song on ODP.)

~ ~ ~

Shifting gears here but since Skeptic mentioned Hurricane Holly upthread, I was thinking about that name.  I know there's general agreement that "they didn't name her for a saint / they named her for a storm" points to Holly rather than Jesse since there actually was a Hurricane Holly, etc. But in "Resurrection" we learn that her parents didn't name her "Holly," they named her Hallelujiah, and the nickname came later, from her friends.  How do we square that?  

[skepticatfirst]

Feb 27, 2021 12:16:31 GMT -5 nosferatu said:

The big problem is... Mary is already the wife of Joseph. You may have touched on this before!

Well that's a bigger problem, technically. :-) But it's funny, that's kind of the situation the Narrator finds himself in, in fact. Tough role to play.

[skepticatfirst]

Feb 27, 2021 14:27:37 GMT -5 star18 said:

I do think the "Heather Lunn" thing is pure coincidence, but when you see something like that when you're already deep in a rabbit hole, it sure does give you a little thrill. Also, I realized today that the line is "specific British clipper ship" so that's a knock against my Grand Turk connection.

Just to be clear, yes, that's a coincidence, as is I think all the stuff about the riots, the house being empty, and the Girl, Interrupted connection. We don't need the Grand Turk or Hanover, MA at all in order to account for the themes of clipper ship, China trade, spices, etc. And while the Queen of the Lakes reference in Parade Days is real, it's connected to the parade motif in the lyrics, not to anything having to do with Hanover, MN specifically. So it's pretty safe to bracket all of that off to one side. 

Feb 27, 2021 14:27:37 GMT -5 star18 said:

Sometimes I do wonder how much of this can be tied back to the fact that there are ~120 songs at this point, most of which are pretty goddamn lyrically dense, so when you're looking to make a connection to something else in the catalogue, there's just a lot of possibilities and thus a pretty good chance of stumbling over something unintentional.  You can get caught up in some complicated things. But the line about the python in the shower is an (unusually obvious) connection back to "Snake in the Shower," so that feels like a pretty bright line to Sheppard Mansion.

Yeah, this is the reason why my bias is toward what you called "restricting possible interpretations" in the other thread. Apophenia is a thing. The good news here is that we're basically just dealing with decorations on the cake; ODP gives us some more detail about interactions with Shepard in particular, but there's nothing on the album that changes what we know about the story. The scope for going off the rails is pretty limited.

The funny thing is that I started to write that post this morning in order to say that I didn't think there was likely to be more there than just the Hanover camera and Hanover, MN connections, and set out to show that by tracing the development of the "Shepard's mansion" theme starting with Ascension Blues. But as I untangled the pieces in writing I realized that it was not only possible for Sheppard Mansion in Hanover, PA to have been deliberately absorbed into the mix of images, it was in fact a likelier motivator for "Hanover" than either "Hanover camera," which is really obscure, and clearly a solution Craig hit on after he'd already decided that he wanted "Hanover" in there, or Hanover, MN, which can certainly be made to fit in with the story and its themes, but doesn't have the substance to be a point of departure. 

Anyway, I do think that the Hanover, PA connection probably starts and ends with Sheppard Mansion, although it's possible that the city's status as the snack food capital of the USA (this is a Main Characteristic of the place) is connected to the appearance of this line on the album:

    The grackles at the snack bar waging war for popcorn and potato chips [MaM]

Of course, THS "snack food" would be drugs: "popcorn"=marijuana, "potato chips"=crack cut with benzocaine, "chips"=joints laced with PCP (see the DEA and ONDCP documents linked in the Alright Alright thread). 

Feb 27, 2021 14:27:37 GMT -5 star18 said:

(On a real-world note, it's kinda interesting that Franz has called out "Snake in the Shower" as a tune that he wished made the cut for TTTP, and then here we have that same motif on the most keyboard-centric song on ODP.)

I really wish I had the chops to follow the musical themes. On the HiW reissue notes, Tad suggests that Hurricane J references some of the same themes as YLHF in a way that suggests band consensus, meaning that in principle Craig would be involved with the decision to do that. If so, that's fascinating from a story development point of view.

Feb 27, 2021 14:27:37 GMT -5 star18 said:

Shifting gears here but since Skeptic mentioned Hurricane Holly upthread, I was thinking about that name.  I know there's general agreement that "they didn't name her for a saint / they named her for a storm" points to Holly rather than Jesse since there actually was a Hurricane Holly, etc. But in "Resurrection" we learn that her parents didn't name her "Holly," they named her Hallelujiah, and the nickname came later, from her friends.  How do we square that?  

This is one of those things that I don't want to spoil but don't want to be annoying about, either, so watch me do both. I'm confident the answer is that

- HaRRF came out in May 2005
- the event that gave Craig the idea for the Hurricane Holly framing happened after that
- the discovery, after this event, of a Hurricane Holly on more or less exactly the right date for story purposes made him say "fuck consistency, that's going in"

If you want to try to work out what the event in question was, I would just meditate on lines like "Hurricane Jesse's going to crash into the harbor this summer," "once she starts rolling it's wild like the ocean/ And the ocean is violent and vast," etc.; it'll probably come to you.

Otherwise, the full explanation is coming up in the Alright Alright thread, if I counted forward correctly, on April 23 (gotta wait a little longer for Hanover, MN on June 11).

[muzzleofbees]

I'm guessing you refer to another hurricane: Katarina.

[skepticatfirst]

Feb 28, 2021 1:51:57 GMT -5 muzzleofbees said:

I'm guessing you refer to another hurricane: Katarina.

August 2005, three months after the release of Sep Sunday.

[star18]

Anyway, I do think that the Hanover, PA connection probably starts and ends with Sheppard Mansion, although it's possible that the city's status as the snack food capital of the USA (this is a Main Characteristic of the place) is connected to the appearance of this line on the album:



The grackles at the snack bar waging war for popcorn and potato chips [MaM]

Hah, great catch! The snack connection did occur to me (I'm from PA originally and "Snyder's of Hanover" snacks were definitely a Thing growing up), but I forgot that he dropped a few snack references just one song earlier.

I really wish I had the chops to follow the musical themes. On the HiW reissue notes, Tad suggests that Hurricane J references some of the same themes as YLHF in a way that suggests band consensus, meaning that in principle Craig would be involved with the decision to do that. If so, that's fascinating from a story development point of view.

Not that it matters terribly, but I was just talking about the lyrical motif -- I don't think "Hanover" and "Snake in the Shower" are all that similar musically.  Just thought it was interesting that Franz had mentioned his fondness for "Snake" and then Craig brings that key image back on this tune, which is so keyboard-heavy.  Almost like "okay bud, here's a new snake song for ya since the last one didn't make the cut."

Otherwise, the full explanation is coming up in the Alright Alright thread, if I counted forward correctly, on April 23 (gotta wait a little longer for Hanover, MN on June 11).

You are a madman and I love you for it.

[muzzleofbees]

Feb 28, 2021 8:03:16 GMT -5 skepticatfirst said:

Feb 28, 2021 1:51:57 GMT -5 muzzleofbees said:

I'm guessing you refer to another hurricane: Katarina.

August 2005, three months after the release of Sep Sunday.

Exactly!

Hurricanes were actually on my mind yesterday. I’m reading a book by Norwegian artist Sondre Lerche (who actually have spent more timing both living, and playing in the US than in Norway, and who moved to Williamsburg in 2005) called Alle Sanger Handler Om Deg (All songs is about you). In one of the essays he writers about heading up to a beach in Queens, listening to Eno and Byrne on his new earbuds. The beach, and the community around it, was still bearing marks of Hurricane Sandy (they didn’t call it San Antonio, as far as I know), and i had to think back to remember the difference between Katarina (which was widely covered in Norway too) and Sandy. Maybe that’s why I caught that one immideatly.

[skepticatfirst]

Feb 28, 2021 13:40:44 GMT -5 muzzleofbees said:

Feb 28, 2021 8:03:16 GMT -5 skepticatfirst said:

August 2005, three months after the release of Sep Sunday.

Exactly!

Hurricanes were actually on my mind yesterday. I’m reading a book by Norwegian artist Sondre Lerche (who actually have spent more timing both living, and playing in the US than in Norway, and who moved to Williamsburg in 2005) called Alle Sanger Handler Om Deg (All songs is about you). In one of the essays he writers about heading up to a beach in Queens, listening to Eno and Byrne on his new earbuds. The beach, and the community around it, was still bearing marks of Hurricane Sandy (they didn’t call it San Antonio, as far as I know), and i had to think back to remember the difference between Katarina (which was widely covered in Norway too) and Sandy. Maybe that’s why I caught that one immideatly.

Well caught in any case! You're right that Sandy could have been a candidate too, if it had landed a couple years earlier, I didn't even think of that. But Katrina's a first-class character in the Lifter Puller story, and she's the one that got him thinking about THS analogies when the 2005 hurricane hit.

This means, by the way, that a bunch of the dates in the Here Goes calendar --- the ones that drive off the precise dating of Hurricane Holly to October 1976 --- aren't as tightly constrained as I thought they were; as star18 points out, "they named her for a storm" introduces at least one inconsistency, and it's entirely likely that there are others. But it's hard to say that Craig didn't make the right call to put it in there.

More generally, it's fascinating to me how he hoovers up things that appear on the radar and makes them part of the story. Bears-Vikings 1996, WTC 9/11, Hurricane Katrina, Sheppard Mansion, whatever; it's all fuel. That, and also the relentless layering: Jesse hiding an allusion to Holly inspired by a Katrina who's still wreaking havoc after her story has long since been put to bed.

[actslapless]

This thread is so ridiculous in the best way possible

[muzzleofbees]

This is a little bit beside the point, but I'm stilling trying to wrap my head around all the references to photography/photo shoots in the ODP lyrics. Hanover Camera is a decent starting point, simply because "camera" is in the title.

Who's being photographed/filmed? Why? And where?

* There's all the stuff about the lighting made it look like she was captured/a hostage in Hanover Camera
* The hand over the lens
* The lens cap in Riptown ("The lens cap was losted so they stretched out the shoot")
*...then revealing that this might be about shooting movies, not taking photographs ("The director's distracted, he's losing his light/ the actors are wrapped up in robes for the night). This thing about the light is picked up again in Hanover Camera, and the double meaning of "light for photography" and "light" as a possible reference to meth, makes it interesting Also: That the "actors" is wearing robes must mean they have very little clothes on for the shoot. Finally: "She tries not to date other actors" and "another sick smile in the spotlight" (ref. "Dust in the spotlight/ we're just overacting" from Slapped Actress)
* The entire verse about the narrator taking a picture of a woman walking into the water (rolling her eyes back in their sockets, and giving the photographer the finger) in Unpleasant Breakfast
* ...and it's picked up again in the final parts of the song ("That girl in last year's picture/ is now haunting her own hallways")
* "Second loaction" is mentioned both in Lanyards and Riptwon. Could mean almost anything, but "location" tucked in with several references to movies/photgraphy/photo shoots, sure rings a bell
* Not exactly a photography reference per se, but it just struck me that Lanyards ("The scene stuck in my head of her spread out on the bed") picks up the opening lines of Spices ("She sent a picture of a plethora of poker chips/ spread out on a bed between a mouth and a leg")

As I said, I don't know what to make of this. There's plenty of throwbacks to the rest of the catalog here. Holly seemingly going to California to do porn, the whole metaphor of actors/making movies (Slapped Actress, but also Sketchy Metal, Eureka, Spectres and probably others I forgot), Mary's "moving pictures" in The Swish, Both Crosses etc. But that's all connected to, yes, moving pictures - films, video, movies. I guess everything about the lens cap, the lighting and the "hostage" thing in Hanover Camera an Riptwon could be about that as well, but the verse in Unpleasant Breakfast, which for some reason seem significant, is clearly about taking a photograph.

I can't back it up in any way, but I have a distinct feeling that the same photo the narrator took that summer, is the one hanging on the fridge in T-Shirt Tux.

[orzelc]

Mar 1, 2021 4:27:20 GMT -5 muzzleofbees said:

This is a little bit beside the point, but I'm stilling trying to wrap my head around all the references to photography/photo shoots in the ODP lyrics. Hanover Camera is a decent starting point, simply because "camera" is in the title.

Who's being photographed/filmed? Why? And where?

* There's all the stuff about the lighting made it look like she was captured/a hostage in Hanover Camera
* The hand over the lens
* The lens cap in Riptown ("The lens cap was losted so they stretched out the shoot")
*...then revealing that this might be about shooting movies, not taking photographs ("The director's distracted, he's losing his light/ the actors are wrapped up in robes for the night). This thing about the light is picked up again in Hanover Camera, and the double meaning of "light for photography" and "light" as a possible reference to meth, makes it interesting Also: That the "actors" is wearing robes must mean they have very little clothes on for the shoot. Finally: "She tries not to date other actors" and "another sick smile in the spotlight" (ref. "Dust in the spotlight/ we're just overacting" from Slapped Actress)
* The entire verse about the narrator taking a picture of a woman walking into the water (rolling her eyes back in their sockets, and giving the photographer the finger) in Unpleasant Breakfast
* ...and it's picked up again in the final parts of the song ("That girl in last year's picture/ is now haunting her own hallways")
* "Second loaction" is mentioned both in Lanyards and Riptwon. Could mean almost anything, but "location" tucked in with several references to movies/photgraphy/photo shoots, sure rings a bell
* Not exactly a photography reference per se, but it just struck me that Lanyards ("The scene stuck in my head of her spread out on the bed") picks up the opening lines of Spices ("She sent a picture of a plethora of poker chips/ spread out on a bed between a mouth and a leg")

As I said, I don't know what to make of this. There's plenty of throwbacks to the rest of the catalog here. Holly seemingly going to California to do porn, the whole metaphor of actors/making movies (Slapped Actress, but also Sketchy Metal, Eureka, Spectres and probably others I forgot), Mary's "moving pictures" in The Swish, Both Crosses etc. But that's all connected to, yes, moving pictures - films, video, movies. I guess everything about the lens cap, the lighting and the "hostage" thing in Hanover Camera an Riptwon could be about that as well, but the verse in Unpleasant Breakfast, which for some reason seem significant, is clearly about taking a photograph.

I can't back it up in any way, but I have a distinct feeling that the same photo the narrator took that summer, is the one hanging on the fridge in T-Shirt Tux.

A couple of things from this:

-- The actors in robes are clearly in a movie of the type Holly filmed in "Curves and Nerves"

-- The "Unpleasant Breakfast" bit is just that since the previous summer (where she struck a weird but endearing pose for the narrator to photograph) the girl has had a breakdown (lots of anti-psychosis meds), and she's referring to the photo as a reminder of what she's lost.

-- Somewhere else (FB maybe?) I saw references to a speech from a cop show about how it's really bad news whenever a victim goes to a second location with a killer, which I think makes a lot of sense.

I'm not overly concerned with trying to make every one of these people part of a single grand narrative, but that's how I read those phrases.

[muzzleofbees]

Mar 1, 2021 7:11:39 GMT -5 orzelc said:

-- The actors in robes are clearly in a movie of the type Holly filmed in "Curves and Nerves"

-- The "Unpleasant Breakfast" bit is just that since the previous summer (where she struck a weird but endearing pose for the narrator to photograph) the girl has had a breakdown (lots of anti-psychosis meds), and she's referring to the photo as a reminder of what she's lost.

-- Somewhere else (FB maybe?) I saw references to a speech from a cop show about how it's really bad news whenever a victim goes to a second location with a killer, which I think makes a lot of sense.

I'm not overly concerned with trying to make every one of these people part of a single grand narrative, but that's how I read those phrases.

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting all of these lines/motifs are part of the same narrative. It was just an attempt to summarize photo/movie related lines through the album, as I had a feeling there were plenty of them.

Robes: Yes, that was sort of what I tried to say.

Breakfast: Agree, but I think your "just" is a little quick. When Craig spends an entire verse describing a scene like this, I think it's plausible that it's significant in one narrative way or the other. I have no idea how or why, though.

Second Location: Yeah, I read that somewhere too, and it fits very nice with the way it's used (at least in Riptown). Again, I'm not saying I know what it means, but the motif of actors/directors/movies is very present in many Hold Steady songs, so I would at least pay attention to a possible double meaning of that "second location".

I'm not really here to tell anybody what these lyrics are about, or claiming that any of these lines fit into a grander scheme. I just enjoy reading through these lyrics, find similarites, between lines, songs and albums, and try to form an opinion on what it could mean. By know I think it's pretty established that Craig keep on telling a bigger story. Not in every line, maybe not in every song, but nevertheles. And when I hear a number of lines spinning somewhere in the proximity of the same metaphor, I'd like to have a closer look.

[tableinthecorner]

Mar 1, 2021 4:27:20 GMT -5 muzzleofbees said:

As I said, I don't know what to make of this. There's plenty of throwbacks to the rest of the catalog here. Holly seemingly going to California to do porn, the whole metaphor of actors/making movies (Slapped Actress, but also Sketchy Metal, Eureka, Spectres and probably others I forgot), Mary's "moving pictures" in The Swish, Both Crosses etc. But that's all connected to, yes, moving pictures - films, video, movies. I guess everything about the lens cap, the lighting and the "hostage" thing in Hanover Camera an Riptwon could be about that as well, but the verse in Unpleasant Breakfast, which for some reason seem significant, is clearly about taking a photograph.

I've been wondering this myself and I don't have anything close to an answer, but I'll throw "we took a couple photographs and carved them into wood reliefs" into the mix for anyone who wants to solve it.

[timmytva]

Feb 26, 2021 13:54:18 GMT -5 star18 said:

After being initially grabbed by some of the bigger tunes, I've started really appreciating "Hanover Camera" more and more this week. Musically, it's such a cool groove; folks have pointed out the similarities to 70s Steely Dan or Boz Scaggs, and that horn lick is infectious.  Then I started thinking about the lyrics on a deeper level, and went down a funky little rabbit hole I thought some of you might enjoy.

<snipped>


YESSSS! I thought exactly the same. One of the more R&B-ish songs in the cannon.


Speaking of 70s vibe ... Riptide ... sounds a bit Eddie Money to me.


Tim

[skepticatfirst]

Mar 1, 2021 10:37:26 GMT -5 timmytva said:

Feb 26, 2021 13:54:18 GMT -5 star18 said:

After being initially grabbed by some of the bigger tunes, I've started really appreciating "Hanover Camera" more and more this week. Musically, it's such a cool groove; folks have pointed out the similarities to 70s Steely Dan or Boz Scaggs, and that horn lick is infectious.  Then I started thinking about the lyrics on a deeper level, and went down a funky little rabbit hole I thought some of you might enjoy.

<snipped>


YESSSS! I thought exactly the same. One of the more R&B-ish songs in the cannon.


Speaking of 70s vibe ... Riptide ... sounds a bit Eddie Money to me.


Tim

Definitely hearing the Steely Dan in Hanover Camera. Again, musical themes not my forte, but with Riptown I can't shake the "Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues again" feel. I do think they benefit from the heavy-hitting Side A for balance but now that I've settled into the album it's the final three tracks I keep coming back to: Riptown, Me & Magdalenda, Hanover Camera.

[skepticatfirst]

Mar 1, 2021 8:08:54 GMT -5 muzzleofbees said:

Mar 1, 2021 7:11:39 GMT -5 orzelc said:

-- Somewhere else (FB maybe?) I saw references to a speech from a cop show about how it's really bad news whenever a victim goes to a second location with a killer, which I think makes a lot of sense.

Second Location: Yeah, I read that somewhere too, and it fits very nice with the way it's used (at least in Riptown). Again, I'm not saying I know what it means, but the motif of actors/directors/movies is very present in many Hold Steady songs, so I would at least pay attention to a possible double meaning of that "second location".

This is a solid find --- googling "second location" in quotes brings up a bunch of links all pointing to the same idea, which suggests that it's definitely correct as far as it goes ("It became a whole pop culture thing": link).

Plus, this reading is a really good fit for the idea of a second location both as a place "she won't go" [Lanyards] and as a place of which you have to "be careful" [Riptown].

But what we're getting in ODP clearly has more going on than just this. First, when the narrator tells us that she won't go, it's clear that that's somehow a really sad thing:

    She's into new things
    But she won't go to a second location [Lanyards]

Which is in pretty jarring contrast to the warning that she shouldn't go:

    And some local legend let her pick up the check
    Then he hit her with his whole presentation
    Be careful of the second location [Riptown]

especially when the other Riptown reference confirms that this means she *did* go after all:

    The lens cap was lost so they stretched out the shoot
    The second location, it stuck to her shoes [Riptown]

and that the fallout was that it ... stuck to her shoes.

I think you're right that last pair of lines, connecting "second location" with "the shoot," means that "location" is also being used here in the sense of shooting a movie on location (compare "when I scouted the location" [TLTtSTtM]).

So as usual, lots to unpack.

[lizzyg]

Amazing sleuthing.

So slapped actress ends with "man we make our own movies" which I take to mean that a lot of these movie references are about people in the scene performing for each other and themselves in ways that are both silly and empowering since we make our own reality.

Although I do think that Holly went to California and didn't make it to the coast - just ended up in hotel rooms making porn. But I don't think that all movie references are about that Holly story.

I especially like lines like "The lighting made her look like she'd been captured" and "The lighting made her look like she's a hostage". They make the parties seem so performative.

[nosferatu]

Mar 1, 2021 4:27:20 GMT -5 muzzleofbees said:

This is a little bit beside the point, but I'm stilling trying to wrap my head around all the references to photography/photo shoots in the ODP lyrics. Hanover Camera is a decent starting point, simply because "camera" is in the title.

Who's being photographed/filmed? Why? And where?

* There's all the stuff about the lighting made it look like she was captured/a hostage in Hanover Camera
* The hand over the lens
* The lens cap in Riptown ("The lens cap was losted so they stretched out the shoot")
*...then revealing that this might be about shooting movies, not taking photographs ("The director's distracted, he's losing his light/ the actors are wrapped up in robes for the night).

As I said, I don't know what to make of this. There's plenty of throwbacks to the rest of the catalog here. Holly seemingly going to California to do porn, the whole metaphor of actors/making movies (Slapped Actress, but also Sketchy Metal, Eureka, Spectres and probably others I forgot), Mary's "moving pictures" in The Swish, Both Crosses etc. But that's all connected to, yes, moving pictures - films, video, movies. I guess everything about the lens cap, the lighting and the "hostage" thing in Hanover Camera

This rang a bell somewhere in my head, and I remembered I used to teach a course on the moving image at the college I worked at - one of the set texts was a brilliant documentary called "Visions of Light", which was made by the BFI and basically focuses on the role of the cinematographer, and the development of that role across the decades. They interviewed Nestor Almendros, who was DOP on "Days Of Heaven", which is shot almost entirely during "magic hour", which is basically a 20 minute window where the light is very soft and lends the film its feel - hence the lines about the director (in "real life", the oft-elusive maverick Terrence Malick) being distracted. Another big mention is there is a famous scene in "Days of Heaven" featuring a swarm of locusts... pretty sure we've mentioned the significance of that before.