|
Post by doctoracula on Dec 12, 2018 8:31:57 GMT -5
(And I definitely don’t mean to discredit writing from a horrible perspective. I love Randy Newman and he wrote some truly vile characters. But this song seems less interested in exploring the evil that can exist within people than just simple old man banality. And, like I said, it feels lazy)
|
|
|
Post by chinaski on Dec 12, 2018 10:28:24 GMT -5
It's funny you mention Randy Newman. When I was younger and first getting into THS my Dad used to always tell me Craig reminded him of Randy Newman, which I found confusing at the time I only knew him as the dude who wrote Disney songs.
As for the podcast, I ended up listening to the first three and really enjoyed it. I found the instrumentals playing every now and then really enjoyable to listen to.
The podcast really made me realise that THS has never really been a fixed idea, especially with the thing Franz said about some people complaining about when the pianos being added and some people complaining when they went away. We all have an idea of what THS is in our heads, but I wonder if all of our personal ideas are similar at all.
I also liked what Franz said about some people willfully misreading and misrepresenting the band as just a feelgood band. It's true that the gigs can be magnificent and joyous, but I've certainly never thought of THS as some mindless upbeat party band.
They already had Craig touch on Slapped Actress and the inspiration for it, so I'm a bit curious about where it is they're going to go with it in the episode a few of you have mentioned.
|
|
|
Post by doctoracula on Dec 12, 2018 14:05:03 GMT -5
I love that Franz brought up the darkness in the songs. Like Craig says in the podcast, you don’t tell yourself to stay positive when things are going ok. I love SP so much because it starts out bright, falls deep into darkness, and tries like hell to climb out.
Craig 100% reminds me of Randy newman and I mean that as the highest possible compliment.
|
|
|
Post by muzzleofbees on Dec 12, 2018 15:37:26 GMT -5
But then I wonder why write from that perspective? What does it add to the story? What do we get from it? I dunno, I might be able to forgive it more if the lyrics also didn’t strike me as so lazy. The man can do so much better than “there’s other words than yes.” We can agree on this one. Even if it's a character saying those lines, it's pretty close to bad writing. My point is just that it doesn't have to reflect Craig's own views and values. And if we go back to the podcast: It would have been a whole different matter if their critique of him was from a "this is bad writing" point of view. But both the guys in the podcast, and most definitely Franz, seems to suggest that creating characters with a not exactly positive set of values, is reflecting bad on Craig. Not lyrical, but ethical. And as I said, you rarely see an author of a novel been criticized for the same thing. If you accept the premise that this is Charlemagne talking to Jesse, it makes a little bit more sense. He isn't exactly portraied as a progressive type, and neither as a man with enormous power over language or the spoken word. See the narrator in Hurricane J or the verses in On With The Business for reference. That doesn't mean he couldn't be written better - my only point is that it's him, Charlemagne, who's the type of guy to say stuff like "there's other words than yes", "little girl", "those are just words, words can be weird". It's not Craig per se. I remember a similar discussion about a line from The Only Thing ("This town was so much more fun/ when there weren't so much police"). That was also discarded as badly written, and maybe it is. But in the broader context of Craig's lyrical universe, I'm willing to accept that lines like that are written that way to fit a character's style. I know it's harder to separate a singer in a band who screams lyrics in first person than, say, the writers of The Wire from the things that the characters in The Wire says. But in principle, it should be the same thing - at least in any body of musical work that isn't explicitly autobiographical. And some of the above might be the answer to what it adds to the story as well: It paints a character as the type of guy who has a set of values who makes it natural to say (stupid) stuff like that. And how that is used as a driving element in the narrative. But again: I'm all with you on those lines being among Craig's laziest. That's not the case with the mentioned lines from Slapped Actress. Sorry for going on in such lenghts about this, and especially in a specific reply to you. I just find it really interesting.
|
|
|
Post by muzzleofbees on Dec 12, 2018 15:43:11 GMT -5
I also liked what Franz said about some people willfully misreading and misrepresenting the band as just a feelgood band. It's true that the gigs can be magnificent and joyous, but I've certainly never thought of THS as some mindless upbeat party band. Yeah, that was a bit refreshing. If anything, what I fell for the first time I heard Hold Steady, was how they made music and wrote lyrics about people who were caught in a world of euphoric and blistering parties, but presented it with a lot of melancholy, sentimentality and afterthought. There's always darkness lurking just around the corner. Not only in Stay Positive, but in all the releases - even the one who might have the least of it, Boys And Girls. You could sort of tell that this was music about party people made by people with enough distance to their late teens/early twenties, that they were able to tell those people's stories from both the sunny side and the flipside.
|
|
|
Post by spencerm on Dec 13, 2018 2:26:15 GMT -5
On the note of the feel good band thing, I think some of the darkness is sidelined during the live shows. The concerts are celebrations which means that lines like 'gonna walk around and drink some more' take on a different tone than they do within the context of the song. I see where Franz is coming from but I suspect he might also recognize that the picture is complicated and context matters. Just like lots of people know they're going to be hungover tomorrow, they still think (at least in the moment) that the fun they'll have in the evening is worth the cost.
|
|
|
Post by Rattlesnake Gospel on Dec 13, 2018 13:09:19 GMT -5
On the note of the feel good band thing, I think some of the darkness is sidelined during the live shows. The concerts are celebrations which means that lines like 'gonna walk around and drink some more' take on a different tone than they do within the context of the song. I see where Franz is coming from but I suspect he might also recognize that the picture is complicated and context matters. Just like lots of people know they're going to be hungover tomorrow, they still think (at least in the moment) that the fun they'll have in the evening is worth the cost. This is spot on, especially the part about certain lines taking on different tones in the celebration-like setting of a live show. Well said, friend. On a side note, is that a Wintersleep shirt you're wearing in your profile pic? Such an underrated band.
|
|
|
Post by spencerm on Dec 14, 2018 0:39:57 GMT -5
On the note of the feel good band thing, I think some of the darkness is sidelined during the live shows. The concerts are celebrations which means that lines like 'gonna walk around and drink some more' take on a different tone than they do within the context of the song. I see where Franz is coming from but I suspect he might also recognize that the picture is complicated and context matters. Just like lots of people know they're going to be hungover tomorrow, they still think (at least in the moment) that the fun they'll have in the evening is worth the cost. This is spot on, especially the part about certain lines taking on different tones in the celebration-like setting of a live show. Well said, friend. On a side note, is that a Wintersleep shirt you're wearing in your profile pic? Such an underrated band. Haha yeah it is. I was wearing one the first time I met Craig too and he said "We're going on tour with them, are they good?" He later remarked that they are indeed a killer band.
|
|
TKalltheTime
Sniffling Indie Kid
Blotto / Blacked Out / Cracked Out / Caved In
Posts: 194
|
Post by TKalltheTime on Dec 14, 2018 17:38:09 GMT -5
On the note of the feel good band thing, I think some of the darkness is sidelined during the live shows. The concerts are celebrations which means that lines like 'gonna walk around and drink some more' take on a different tone than they do within the context of the song. I see where Franz is coming from but I suspect he might also recognize that the picture is complicated and context matters. Just like lots of people know they're going to be hungover tomorrow, they still think (at least in the moment) that the fun they'll have in the evening is worth the cost. Agreed, much like life (and I think people forget this a lot) not everything is black or white. Also context very much matters and can change mood/meaning/atmosphere.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2018 2:34:02 GMT -5
-- I see Bobby (Drake) from time to time – we were the youngest guys in the band and road roommates. They asked me – through Bob, I guess he’s the designated Franz-whisperer – to open for their shows in Toronto a few months ago, but that didn’t seem like a good idea. I went to see them in Toronto last winter when I was living there. I figured, five years had passed, it was time to check back in. It was very cleansing for me – I felt like I got some closure, that I hadn’t been missing out on anything.
I’ve checked out the records. If I was writing reviews of them, I do have some specific criticisms, not as a former member, just as an interested party who knows their work as well as anyone. I think the doubling down on guitars is neither here nor there. I’m not sure you’d find the person who’d say “The real problem with The Hold Steady is there’s just not enough guitars”. It’s important to remember that there were almost as many people who thought keyboards ruined the band as people who missed them when they were gone. I think there was a shift in Craig (Finn)’s lyrics, to their detriment, from relatively neutral, even amused, narration of peoples’ bad behaviour – we’re all glorious fuckups – to dispenser of paternalistic advice and moralistic judgment. I am surprised when I see him getting patted on the back for writing female characters. Sure, Holly (though that’s a pretty familiar romanticization of the old Madonna/whore thing), but especially on the last record there’s an uncomfortable amount of frankly condescending and not a little contradictory (“It’s a big city, there’s a lot of love/you gotta get back out there“) versus “I’m sorry, but there’s other words than yes/why don’t you wait a while?” attitudes toward the women in the songs. It’s a problem. www.godisinthetvzine.co.uk/2015/02/02/interview-franz-nicolay/[/quote] This really interests me. I quoted The Hold Steady in a Mountain Goats Facebook group (I wasn’t the first, someone posted THS memes in the group) and someone slapped me down, saying Craig’s lyrics were really sexist. I’m a dude, so I didn’t debate them, and i’ve been re-examining my relationship to their lyrics since they said that. I’d be interested in what other critics have said. The narrative of a woman who ‘sins’ through sex and then gets ‘saved’ is problematic, I understand. Girls Like Status bothers me for a similar reason: though it seems ironic, it’s close to what a lot of creepy internet dudes i’ve seen unironically believe. On a lighter note, as someone who studied philosophy in school hearing Franz quote Hegel’s idea of thesis, synthesis, and anthisis was pretty funny and cool. If I had the resources i’d do an I Only Listen To The Hold Steady Podcast.
|
|
|
Post by vegetron on Jan 16, 2019 15:17:28 GMT -5
Whilst there have been some interesting parts to this series, it has felt to me a little bit like the people who made it are trying to needlessly shit stir in places.
Then I got to the "weaknesses" bit. Crikey. Mega cringe. I guess not everyone has the benefit of reading the epic "Here goes" thread on here but some of these criticisms were really wide of the mark and unnecessary.
Magazines and Joke About Jamaica are great!!! And the Slapped Actress part was a bit odd. Critics overthinking things!
|
|
TKalltheTime
Sniffling Indie Kid
Blotto / Blacked Out / Cracked Out / Caved In
Posts: 194
|
Post by TKalltheTime on Jan 19, 2019 15:59:05 GMT -5
Whilst there have been some interesting parts to this series, it has felt to me a little bit like the people who made it are trying to needlessly shit stir in places. Then I got to the "weaknesses" bit. Crikey. Mega cringe. I guess not everyone has the benefit of reading the epic "Here goes" thread on here but some of these criticisms were really wide of the mark and unnecessary. Magazines and Joke About Jamaica are great!!! And the Slapped Actress part was a bit odd. Critics overthinking things! That whole episode stunk to high-heaven of a “lets find some controversy in nothing”. It was either completely bullshit or these people really have little to no clue what they are talking about and really shouldn’t have been the people handling this series. Or a combination of both... either way it was embarrassing.
|
|
|
Post by maaskesr on Jan 24, 2019 15:40:46 GMT -5
So saying "Girls Like Status" is viewed as terrible? The inability to talk about things that ARE because they might offend some seems crazy, especially in art. I mean, guys do go for looks.
|
|
|
Post by sequesteredinuk on Jan 25, 2019 13:11:20 GMT -5
I love that Franz brought up the darkness in the songs. Like Craig says in the podcast, you don’t tell yourself to stay positive when things are going ok. I love SP so much because it starts out bright, falls deep into darkness, and tries like hell to climb out. Craig 100% reminds me of Randy newman and I mean that as the highest possible compliment. Craig doesn't remind me of Newman at all. I don't think Craig has got it in him to write something as nasty as 'short people' (a song Newman cites as regrettable but always makes sure it makes it on every greatest hits compilation) or as bland as 'I love LA' for example. I don't see any similarities at all. But people are allowed to like anything they want. I'm just giving my two cents, I think Craig is head and shoulders a better writer than Randy. However, since I'm here and I don't post often I must say something bothered me about something Craig said on one of the podcasts, number one I think. Let me preface this by saying I like Craig, I've met him a couple of times, the second time he remembered the first time which I thought was nice considering how many fans he must meet. Showed me that he invests something of himself in these exchanges rather than it being just a PR exercise or business transaction.....talking about the sound check experience. Craig said in regard to their current touring, playing 3 or 4 night stints in big Cities, that if they "played a Tuesday night in Iowa City it would be a big deal for the crowd but for us it's just Tuesday". I guess that this shouldn't really bother me but you can't help what bothers you can you?.....the notion that such a show is merely going thru the motions takes away from the "There is so Much joy up here" to me. Is there? Or does it depend on where you are for the joy to take place? This got me thinking of Springsteen and Strummer, two artists Craig thinks highly of, one thing is for sure about Bruce, you could see him On a Tuesday night in Iowa and it may well be the best show you'll ever see in your life such was his commitment to every show. Strummer was a great believer in taking the music to the people, not the opposite that THS do now, the people coming to the music which probably means 90% of their audience worldwide will never see another show ever if this means of 'touring' continues.With this in mind I could have done with not hearing the Iowa comment in all honesty. I'm lucky enough to be able to go to most shows but I've got a few mates who can't go because of family, geography and finances. I think it was a comment or thought Craig could have kept to himself with the benefit of hindsight. Thanks for listening, thanks for understanding.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2019 15:40:10 GMT -5
“I don't think Craig has got it in him to write something as nasty as 'short people' “ What about ‘all your favorite music wouldn’t sound so sad if you weren’t so depressed/yeah Elliot Smith sounds like a mess to me’ This is about a guy who even Rick & Morty treated with respect. So saying "Girls Like Status" is viewed as terrible? The inability to talk about things that ARE because they might offend some seems crazy, especially in art. I mean, guys do go for looks. It just literally sounds, verbatim, like what some of the worst people on the Internet, Incels and Jordan Peterson fans and pick up artists, say about relationships and women. That women are ‘hypergamous’, that they’re always seeking out high status men, that they just want men for money or power or whatever. I know it’s not a very serious song, but because of all that it just rubs me the wrong way. And it sucks because it also has the This Year reference, which, out of all the 100s of music references THS make, is the one that is most personally meaningful to me. It also means it might be some Mountain Goats’ fans first exposure to THS, and it’s not the best. But hey, that’s just my opinion. I’d love to read a feminist anylysis of THS’ music, I know someone threatened to write one. I’m wondering to what degree sexism accusations are warranted, and how fair their treatment of Holly is. As Franz points out, it may be tied into some old, religious assumptions. The ‘Madonna/whore’. I got into THS 13 years ago, and my thinking about these issues has changed over the years. I’m not saying they’re a bad band, or bad people, or that the lyrics are bad. People like Nick Cave write songs that are unambiguously sexist and violent, and I and many people still love them. And the fact that there is so much to chew on in their lyrics proves how deep they are. It’s just something i’ve been chewing on.
|
|
tbob
True Scene Leader
Posts: 548
|
Post by tbob on Jan 26, 2019 23:11:25 GMT -5
I can’t get my head around the Girls Like Status/ Jordan Peterson fans thing. As explained by Craig onstage it’s something his Dad said to him once, it’s not a credo. Exactly the same as Galen telling him “you know Craig, you’ve got to dance with who you came to the dance with” was advice from a loved one about his drinking habits, not about actual dancing. Sheesh. For what it’s worth the podcast sucks but I still listened to it. The best parts feature Franz, but Franz is my favourite Beatle (of sorts.)
|
|
tbob
True Scene Leader
Posts: 548
|
Post by tbob on Jan 26, 2019 23:14:46 GMT -5
Also Elliott Smith was a fucking mess, regardless of what a pair of animated characters created a decade after his death thought.
|
|
|
Post by Rattlesnake Gospel on Jan 27, 2019 2:16:28 GMT -5
It never hurts to reexamine things through a fresh lens when the times change or new information comes to light.
I recently read a great interview with Molly Ringwald about some questionable scenes in John Hughes' classic films. The one that really stuck with me is in 'The Breakfast Club' when Judd Nelson's John Bender shoves his face into her character's crotch after spying her underwear while hiding beneath the table: absolutely sexual assault, but five minutes later when he's acting charming, we forget about it. She defends Hughes and his vision, never portraying him as a monster but rather suggests that the conversations about such movies should change with the times. After reading, I watched 'The Breakfast Club' for the first time in probably 20 years and I'll admit, that scene and some others made me extremely uncomfortable.
Similarly, I read an interview over the holidays with Shane MacGowan about how some of the language in "Fairytale of New York" got it banned from radio stations in the UK, namely the word "faggot" sung by Kirsty Maccoll in the third verse. Shane was asked if he was surprised or angry about the song getting banned and his response was essentially "I can't believe it took you this long to stop playing it." He went on to explain that the line was written from the perspective of her character, and this is how these two people would realistically be speaking to each other under their circumstances. He defended it by saying he always tries to write as accurately as possible but also understood how the language could be hurtful to some, and therefore not surprised that some stations wouldn't play the song.
My wife is a staunch feminist, constantly enlightening & educating and I want nothing more to learn, accommodate and understand. She's also as much as THS fan as I am, and defends Craig's lyrics for the same reason - that they're written largely from characters' perspectives. We recently got into a discussion on the subject when one of our friends dismissed Craig's lyrics as sexist, claiming his female characters "aren't written with many redeemable qualities." My wife offered up a very simple and accurate rebuttal: neither are his male characters. He's not writing songs for the Partidge Family. They're largely tragic tales, and while they don't always paint his characters (male or female) in the most flattering light, that doesn't mean they don't deserve to be told.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 5:03:34 GMT -5
The Fairytale of New York thing always surprised me. They play it, uncensored, in Australian supermarkets! Like c’mon, at least bleep out that word, it’s 2018. Amazing song, but that’s pretty unambiguously offensive. But most people here think it’s not a problem, even tho we have a very visible gay population. I guess in the UK and Australia it’s just untouchable, everyone deeply loves it.
(Also I can’t remember which THS song references it but that does imply that the song takes place around Christmas. And yes, I have seen multiple bands fake their way through it)
And yeah I can see how some people think THS’ lyrics are sexist, especially the treatment of Holly. I know nobody’s unambiguously positive in their songs, but do they shame her for sleeping around? Or does that come from other characters and her own religious upbringing? Or are they just reporting that she had a hard life? It’s all something to think about. And the idea that somebody needs to be redeemed from a life of drugs and sex by religion is... not an idea I, personally hold.
But Separation Sunday is still my favorite album. Just like I love Nick Cave’s Murder Ballads.
Then they basically give Sapphire a superpower. Is that symbolic of empowerment, or just something cool? Or both?
What got me was getting accused of BEING sexist for quoting THS on a Mountain Goats fan forum. Like, John Darnielle has been a fan of and friends with them longer than I knew they existed. He gave LifterPuller their first major review. So he clearly doesn’t think they’re too problematic.
And I met a girl at a poetry slam who liked THS enough to write a zine called Heaven Is A Place You Can’t Find Your Cigerettes. Tho I admit the fan base is majority male.
And I agree that Franz is the best part of the podcast. He casually quotes Hegel! It’s amazing.
|
|
bigontheinside
Midnight Hauler
If you don't know the words, don't sing along
Posts: 1,478
|
Post by bigontheinside on Jan 27, 2019 9:05:14 GMT -5
What's nasty about Short People? Am I missing something here? It's a satire pointing out the stupidity of racism and other discrimination
As for the "girls go for status" thing though, I always thought it was referring more to confidence, more dominating personalities, rather than money, power etc. Not that that's without fault too.
|
|
|
Post by doctoracula on Jan 27, 2019 9:14:31 GMT -5
But people are allowed to like anything they want. I'm just giving my two cents, I think Craig is head and shoulders a better writer than Randy. The big similarity I see is that both write characters that are not necessarily the best people. Both have a distinct vocal style that veers pretty close to conversational. And both write in character far more than they write autobiographical songs. I love Craig but Randy is one of the all time best American songwriters. Just below Dylan IMO.
|
|
|
Post by skepticatfirst on Jan 27, 2019 11:56:07 GMT -5
Whilst there have been some interesting parts to this series, it has felt to me a little bit like the people who made it are trying to needlessly shit stir in places. This is where I am too. Since the thread's lasted this long, let me pile on. Several people have made the point about characters above, but just to back it up with a quote, this one from his 2017 interview with Peter Kafka ( link): It's bizarre to me, but for whatever reason, a bunch of people who seem like they ought to get it, don't. I really respect Franz --- his tastes in music are way more sophisticated than mine will ever be, and he's obviously a very smart guy. But it's not exactly news that Craig writes from the point of view of characters. Franz complains that Spinners and Wait a While give contradictory advice: well, they do, because in fact those words come from the mouths of two different characters. Seems like Franz should know enough to give Craig the benefit of the doubt here. About Wait a While specifically: I think Craig just saw a rich pun on "wait" and a chance to frame it in the style of the advice-song genre, and jumped on it. Double meanings and assumed framings are what he does. Unfortunately almost nothing after "wait" is developed enough to bring out the irony (muzzleofbees' "lazy" is well said). You need the context of other songs to get there, and it makes sense that a lot of people aren't going to look at that. Fact remains, it is ironic. Slapped Actress seems like it started in a similar way: Craig watched Opening Night, saw an elaborate metaphor for the THS story, and turned it into a song. But it's reflective rather than ironic, with a lot of subtlety and tension, and in the end comes out a much better song than Wait a While. Hard for me to see any problem there. What about ‘all your favorite music wouldn’t sound so sad if you weren’t so depressed/yeah Elliot Smith sounds like a mess to me’ Is that really nasty? You can love Elliot Smith and still acknowledge that the guy was a mess. Look at the other example in the same verse: "Jack Kerouac is dead/ He drank himself to death." No one doubts that Craig reveres Kerouac, he's even said that he likes to think of himself as a Kerouac type, an artist who likes his mom and watches football. You might be right, but this seems more clinical to me than nasty. I’d love to read a feminist anylysis of THS’ music, I know someone threatened to write one. Yeah, it would be interesting to read a real attempt to engage the work along those lines. When you say "threatened," though, it sounds like someone's done a drive-by listen and decided that THS needs a takedown, at which point I'd want to rewind and ask, what are they even hearing? You mentioned "The narrative of a woman who ‘sins’ through sex and then gets ‘saved’" --- where are they getting this? I don't want to argue for interpretation here, but "sins" and "saved" in THS refer to drugs, and to drugs as a 100% gender-equal problem ("I swear I thought she might be our savior"). But I agree that if someone was doing it seriously, that would be interesting. You could start all the way back with Slips Backwards and Nassau Coliseum and have some pretty good stuff to talk about. Just as long as everyone agrees that this is art, and that a world where artists are required to draw up explicit moral prescriptions, rather than sift through the world as it comes to them, would suck.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 0:28:00 GMT -5
‘Threatened’ was the wrong word, it was a very committed THS fan who was talking about writing about whether Holly was a feminist hero. As for drugs... I take a neutral view of them. Drugs can fuck you up, and so can religion. But both of them can also help you. It depends on the circumstances. I think Craig gets this, you can see in his music the joy drugs and alcohol can bring to people. I’m an atheist THS fan, like Frank Turner. I buy into the Catholicism and salvation for the sake of the music. It’s an interesting angle to think about. Actually, Holly reminds me a bit of Nick Cave, who lead a life of drugs and depravity but ended up writing a few piano ballads about God.
|
|
|
Post by muzzleofbees on Jan 28, 2019 16:05:46 GMT -5
My wife is a staunch feminist, constantly enlightening & educating and I want nothing more to learn, accommodate and understand. She's also as much as THS fan as I am, and defends Craig's lyrics for the same reason - that they're written largely from characters' perspectives. We recently got into a discussion on the subject when one of our friends dismissed Craig's lyrics as sexist, claiming his female characters "aren't written with many redeemable qualities." My wife offered up a very simple and accurate rebuttal: neither are his male characters. He's not writing songs for the Partidge Family. They're largely tragic tales, and while they don't always paint his characters (male or female) in the most flattering light, that doesn't mean they don't deserve to be told. Good point about the male characters being just as flawed and (at least in some way) stereotyped as the female ones. And I keep coming back to this: They are characters! Even if Craig's way of writing is something you don't get from your everyday rock singer, it shouldn't be too hard to buy into. And these characters have opinions, world views and ways of putting things that should be pretty easy to separate from Craig Finn's opinions, world views and ways of putting things. It's fascinating how people can watch The Wire, and be totally cool with characters acting like misogynist dirtbags, and not in any way contribute this to the writers or the producers. But when a singer in a band tell stories, he's immedeatly confronted with the moral and ethical stands in his lyrics. As I said earlier: I can sort of understand that the words from a singer in a rock band traditionally have a more autobiographical component to them than what characters in a movie or in a book have. But still: Inside the world of Charlemagne and Mary and Gideon, you would might presume that some of the lines comes from those characters rather than from Craig himself. Just a few more notes about Franz and his critcism: I just find the way he said it, at the time he said it, to be a little bit awkward. If you want to read Craig as a guy who writes condescending songs about women, there's plenty of stuff to pick out from Separation Sunday through Stay Positive as well. And those were songs Franz played on, co-wrote and (seemingly) happily sang along with for the good part of the decade. He could have spoke up in 2005, when Craig shouted "she got screwed up by religion/ she got screwed by soccer players" over Franz' piano lines, rather than take a cheap shot at Craig right after Teeth Dreams,
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 20:49:29 GMT -5
His attitude towards women reminds me a bit of Dylan songs like Like A Rolling Stone and Idiot Wind, just the same kind of snarky attitude. But from what i’ve seen in things like Don’t Look Back, Dylan was like that a bit in real life, while Craig seems like a genuinely nice dude. But I can’t really deny that Separation Sunday can easily be read as what we now call ‘slut shaming’. In my personal life, I don’t care how many skaters a woman has slept with.
But hey, if we stopped listening to all music that had less than enlightened attitudes toward women, that doesn’t leave us with much. Especially not in the classic rock world.
It’s funny Franz didn’t seem to get that Craig was playing a character, then wrote a song from the POV of a comic book character. But you could argue that any character you play reflects on your own views?
I dunno, it’s a complicated topic, and if THS were more famous people would write papers and articles about it.
|
|