art81
Cityscape Skin
Salted Rims and Frosted Mugs
Posts: 25
|
Post by art81 on Dec 6, 2018 19:20:43 GMT -5
Unless I've missed something completely obvious, I couldn't find any thread on this podcast series. It's been popping up on the band's social media account. Not a huge amount of new ground being broken on the back stoty but an absolute sucker for more THS content. Craig, Tab and Franz interviews, interspersed with the hosts views. I've really enjoyed it! thesemiracleswork.wfpk.org/
|
|
|
Post by orzelc on Dec 6, 2018 19:53:18 GMT -5
I was just coming here to see if anybody had posted about this...
I've enjoyed the episodes so far, though one weird problem I keep having is mistaking Franz's voice for Tad's.
|
|
cre618
True Scene Leader
Posts: 714
|
Post by cre618 on Dec 6, 2018 20:13:44 GMT -5
Agreed. The highlight of my drives to work these last few days. Sad that tomorrow is the last one! Kudos to the team that put this together.
|
|
art81
Cityscape Skin
Salted Rims and Frosted Mugs
Posts: 25
|
Post by art81 on Dec 6, 2018 20:27:27 GMT -5
Agreed. The highlight of my drives to work these last few days. Sad that tomorrow is the last one! Kudos to the team that put this together. Absolute highlight for me too. I normally listen to podcasts and 2x or 1.5x to get through them but I slowed these down to bask in the positive.
|
|
TKalltheTime
Sniffling Indie Kid
Blotto / Blacked Out / Cracked Out / Caved In
Posts: 194
|
Post by TKalltheTime on Dec 7, 2018 0:24:09 GMT -5
Episode 4 was quite the eye roll enducing affair, but episodes 1-3 were good.
Let’s see how they wrap it up.
|
|
|
Post by kayfaberaven on Dec 7, 2018 10:10:23 GMT -5
I really appreciate that the band (Craig especially), both in this podcast and more generally, don't shy away from talking about the tension between art and commerce, or interpersonal stuff for that matter.
|
|
charlie
Sniffling Indie Kid
Posts: 214
|
Post by charlie on Dec 7, 2018 15:35:24 GMT -5
I really appreciate that the band (Craig especially), both in this podcast and more generally, don't shy away from talking about the tension between art and commerce, or interpersonal stuff for that matter. Yep. I'd been wanting to hear perspectives on the fallout from SP and then the reunion, and this was pretty great for that. I also wholly agree with Craig that Teeth Dreams needs piano. Or something for texture.
|
|
|
Post by muzzleofbees on Dec 8, 2018 5:30:19 GMT -5
I think this was pretty interesting stuff. Both the discussion on the sacrifcices being made when the band grew bigger, and the honesty about what Craig feels about Teeth Dreams and Heaven Is Whenever. And the sum of everything being said, just underline a feeling I've been having ever since hearing Entitlement Crew: That everyone involved in Hold Steady seems so much more at peace with themselves, the band and it's position. You can sort of hear the maturity and calmness in all of the new songs, and the way they talk about how things were, and how things are now, just enhance that feeling.
|
|
|
Post by doctoracula on Dec 8, 2018 11:13:39 GMT -5
Checking these out today. I never once considered that “lord I’m discouraged” might be autobiographical. Damn.
|
|
|
Post by muzzleofbees on Dec 8, 2018 15:53:08 GMT -5
Checking these out today. I never once considered that “lord I’m discouraged” might be autobiographical. Damn. I guess it depends on how you read Craig's lyrics in general, and how invested you are in the narrative theories, but my take is that they exaggerate the autobiographicalness of it a little bit. It's not exactly possible or very productive to draw a straight line, but even if it's based on Craig's life (what they quote him on is more like that he has a strong personal connection to the song, or something like that, right?) I think there's plenty in it who corresponds really well with the rest of the narrative stuff in Craig's lyrics.
|
|
|
Post by muzzleofbees on Dec 8, 2018 16:07:23 GMT -5
Episode 4 was quite the eye roll enducing affair That Slapped Actress thing? That was really weird. The reporter clearly understand what the Gina Rowlands metaphor does in the song, but still go on for minutes about how "sometimes actresses get slapped" is somehow disturbing. I might not be the best judge here (I'm european, and I'm male), but I think it's a stretch to link that line to misogyny or anti feminism in any way. Which they sort of don't, but still sort of do in the podcast. But when they did in the first place, it was a bit lazy not to connect it to Franz' criticism of the lyrics on Teeth Dreams. Do any of you remember that? He criticized Craig for lacking the exact same ability the reporter in the podcast gives Craig credit for doing: Giving female characters depth and agency. I specifically rememer Franz bashing Wait A While, and all those parts about "little girl", the "there's other words than yes"-part and the chours itself. I understand that this might not be the podcast to take a dig at something like that, but when feminism and disturbing lyrics became an issue in the first place, it felt a bit weird that they didn't. To spin a little bit further on that: One of the most interesting parts about the podcast was the way Franz described his departure, and how he feels about being back. Craig isn't all that chatty on the subject, but gives some context too. But I thing it's a bit underplayed how sour the tone in the press actually was. They dwell on the hedgehog/foxes metaphor, who never really felt that harsh to me. But Franz have said other things about his relationship with the rest of the guys as well. I'm just gonna paste in a passage from a 2015 interview here, to give an example on both. Not to diss either Franz or any other member of the band - just as an reminder that the relationship between Franz and the rest of the band might not have been so straight forward as they suggest in the podcast, almost right up untill the 2016 reunion shows. Hope everyone's okay with that. -- I see Bobby (Drake) from time to time – we were the youngest guys in the band and road roommates. They asked me – through Bob, I guess he’s the designated Franz-whisperer – to open for their shows in Toronto a few months ago, but that didn’t seem like a good idea. I went to see them in Toronto last winter when I was living there. I figured, five years had passed, it was time to check back in. It was very cleansing for me – I felt like I got some closure, that I hadn’t been missing out on anything.
I’ve checked out the records. If I was writing reviews of them, I do have some specific criticisms, not as a former member, just as an interested party who knows their work as well as anyone. I think the doubling down on guitars is neither here nor there. I’m not sure you’d find the person who’d say “The real problem with The Hold Steady is there’s just not enough guitars”. It’s important to remember that there were almost as many people who thought keyboards ruined the band as people who missed them when they were gone. I think there was a shift in Craig (Finn)’s lyrics, to their detriment, from relatively neutral, even amused, narration of peoples’ bad behaviour – we’re all glorious fuckups – to dispenser of paternalistic advice and moralistic judgment. I am surprised when I see him getting patted on the back for writing female characters. Sure, Holly (though that’s a pretty familiar romanticization of the old Madonna/whore thing), but especially on the last record there’s an uncomfortable amount of frankly condescending and not a little contradictory (“It’s a big city, there’s a lot of love/you gotta get back out there“) versus “I’m sorry, but there’s other words than yes/why don’t you wait a while?” attitudes toward the women in the songs. It’s a problem. www.godisinthetvzine.co.uk/2015/02/02/interview-franz-nicolay/
|
|
|
Post by doctoracula on Dec 8, 2018 16:13:28 GMT -5
Checking these out today. I never once considered that “lord I’m discouraged” might be autobiographical. Damn. I guess it depends on how you read Craig's lyrics in general, and how invested you are in the narrative theories, but my take is that they exaggerate the autobiographicalness of it a little bit. It's not exactly possible or very productive to draw a straight line, but even if it's based on Craig's life (what they quote him on is more like that he has a strong personal connection to the song, or something like that, right?) I think there's plenty in it who corresponds really well with the rest of the narrative stuff in Craig's lyrics. I got the impression that it came almost directly from his life. I assume almost all THS songs are fictional and at least part of some narrative, I never think that anything is actually part of CF’s life.
|
|
parock
Midnight Hauler
Posts: 1,000
|
Post by parock on Dec 8, 2018 19:20:49 GMT -5
Episode 4 was quite the eye roll enducing affair That Slapped Actress thing? That was really weird. The reporter clearly understand what the Gina Rowlands metaphor does in the song, but still go on for minutes about how "sometimes actresses get slapped" is somehow disturbing. I might not be the best judge here (I'm european, and I'm male), but I think it's a stretch to link that line to misogyny or anti feminism in any way. Which they sort of don't, but still sort of do in the podcast. But when they did in the first place, it was a bit lazy not to connect it to Franz' criticism of the lyrics on Teeth Dreams. Do any of you remember that? He criticized Craig for lacking the exact same ability the reporter in the podcast gives Craig credit for doing: Giving female characters depth and agency. I specifically rememer Franz bashing Wait A While, and all those parts about "little girl", the "there's other words than yes"-part and the chours itself. I understand that this might not be the podcast to take a dig at something like that, but when feminism and disturbing lyrics became an issue in the first place, it felt a bit weird that they didn't. To spin a little bit further on that: One of the most interesting parts about the podcast was the way Franz described his departure, and how he feels about being back. Craig isn't all that chatty on the subject, but gives some context too. But I thing it's a bit underplayed how sour the tone in the press actually was. They dwell on the hedgehog/foxes metaphor, who never really felt that harsh to me. But Franz have said other things about his relationship with the rest of the guys as well. I'm just gonna paste in a passage from a 2015 interview here, to give an example on both. Not to diss either Franz or any other member of the band - just as an reminder that the relationship between Franz and the rest of the band might not have been so straight forward as they suggest in the podcast, almost right up untill the 2016 reunion shows. Hope everyone's okay with that. -- I see Bobby (Drake) from time to time – we were the youngest guys in the band and road roommates. They asked me – through Bob, I guess he’s the designated Franz-whisperer – to open for their shows in Toronto a few months ago, but that didn’t seem like a good idea. I went to see them in Toronto last winter when I was living there. I figured, five years had passed, it was time to check back in. It was very cleansing for me – I felt like I got some closure, that I hadn’t been missing out on anything.
I’ve checked out the records. If I was writing reviews of them, I do have some specific criticisms, not as a former member, just as an interested party who knows their work as well as anyone. I think the doubling down on guitars is neither here nor there. I’m not sure you’d find the person who’d say “The real problem with The Hold Steady is there’s just not enough guitars”. It’s important to remember that there were almost as many people who thought keyboards ruined the band as people who missed them when they were gone. I think there was a shift in Craig (Finn)’s lyrics, to their detriment, from relatively neutral, even amused, narration of peoples’ bad behaviour – we’re all glorious fuckups – to dispenser of paternalistic advice and moralistic judgment. I am surprised when I see him getting patted on the back for writing female characters. Sure, Holly (though that’s a pretty familiar romanticization of the old Madonna/whore thing), but especially on the last record there’s an uncomfortable amount of frankly condescending and not a little contradictory (“It’s a big city, there’s a lot of love/you gotta get back out there“) versus “I’m sorry, but there’s other words than yes/why don’t you wait a while?” attitudes toward the women in the songs. It’s a problem. www.godisinthetvzine.co.uk/2015/02/02/interview-franz-nicolay/Overall I agree with you - Craig writes about a certain demographic/time/experience that many people have lived through to various degrees. Obviously not the murder aspect of the story, but the shows, the kids, the drugs. One line that hasn't aged well, though the song has never been played, was "Fill up her cup at the keg a couple times, it's pretty much up to you not to blow it." - kinda feels weird when you dissect that line any further than surface level. I also think the one woman really never had an issue, and maybe doesn't really, but only in the context of where she first saw it in a video of the song and some jock bro doing a slapping motion in the crowd while singing along. I dunno. Weird part though for sure.
|
|
|
Post by doctoracula on Dec 9, 2018 16:51:21 GMT -5
the lyrics in "wait awhile" have always made me wince a little bit. never been a huge fan of the song because of it.
|
|
bigontheinside
Midnight Hauler
If you don't know the words, don't sing along
Posts: 1,478
|
Post by bigontheinside on Dec 9, 2018 19:18:02 GMT -5
the lyrics in "wait awhile" have always made me wince a little bit. never been a huge fan of the song because of it. I feel exactly the same way. It's probably the worst hold steady song. It's weird how when they were playing it live before it came out, everyone here was so excited for it, and then pretty unanimously disliked/not mentioned much when it was released. I like to think that it's written with the intent that we don't side with the narrator (calling her "little girl" just seems so tone deaf that I have to hope it's intentional), but that might be a stretch and wishful thinking on my part...
|
|
|
Post by orzelc on Dec 9, 2018 20:18:15 GMT -5
the lyrics in "wait awhile" have always made me wince a little bit. never been a huge fan of the song because of it. There's an interview somewhere where Craig talks about falling into a rut of writing advice songs, and how most of them are sort of regrettable. I think "Wait a While" has a pretty good hook, but I wish he'd come up with better words to go with it. I got a little eye-rolly over the bit in the podcast complaining about "Slapped Actress," because I'm not convinced that particularly stands out among all the shady drug dealers and pimps and violent skinheads in the Hold Steady cosmology. But, you know, that's part of why I'm not a critic...
|
|
|
Post by kayfaberaven on Dec 10, 2018 19:43:05 GMT -5
Another thing that struck me is Franz's comments about the band and their style of music. It edged up to the border of almost being condescending, but luckily it didn't get there. Instead he was just frankly observing that the "Cheap Trick"/etc. style of guitar driven rock isn't really his thing. I appreciate his candour.
|
|
|
Post by orzelc on Dec 11, 2018 6:21:29 GMT -5
Another thing that struck me is Franz's comments about the band and their style of music. It edged up to the border of almost being condescending, but luckily it didn't get there. Instead he was just frankly observing that the "Cheap Trick"/etc. style of guitar driven rock isn't really his thing. I appreciate his candour. Yeah, the phrase "that choogling guitar thing that they like" was pretty striking. You can really see why the producers felt the need to get follow-up from Craig.
|
|
|
Post by muzzleofbees on Dec 11, 2018 6:38:06 GMT -5
Another thing that struck me is Franz's comments about the band and their style of music. It edged up to the border of almost being condescending, but luckily it didn't get there. Instead he was just frankly observing that the "Cheap Trick"/etc. style of guitar driven rock isn't really his thing. I appreciate his candour. This was pretty much his reasons for leaving he stated back in 2010 as well. And he didn't sound any more or less condescending then, at least not in my opinion. I think what he said about "one big idea" was being misread with an emphasis on "one" (as opposed to "numerous ideas"), and it made him look like he bashed his former band for being boring and not very clever. But it makes sense that it was connected to the entire fox/hedgehog image, who doesn't rate one method over another. It simply describes two different types of artists: Those who spend years perfecting one very clear and pure idea, possibly with great results along the way. And those who like to jump from idea to idea, mix them, match the, see what comes out of it. Neihter of them are qualitatively better than the other. It's just different visions, different approaches. But I think it's a fair assumption to make that Franz' has had a saying in how the new songs should sound like, AND that the rest of the band have come to agree more with him now than what they did then. When Craig says in the podcast that Teeth Dreams lacked a piano, he's also sort of saying that they needed to think differently and widen their horizon a little bit. And that's what I love about the new songs: How they capture the soul of "old" Hold Steady, while broadening out the scope, putting more details into the compositions and the arrangments, sounding poppier and (everything's relative) more experimental. Maybe that's one reason why they seem to be functioning better as a band now, that each member have moved a little bit towards each other on the subject of what a rock band like Hold Steady can and should be.
|
|
|
Post by chinaski on Dec 11, 2018 10:52:09 GMT -5
I like to think that it's written with the intent that we don't side with the narrator (calling her "little girl" just seems so tone deaf that I have to hope it's intentional), but that might be a stretch and wishful thinking on my part... Haha every time I've played Teeth Dreams over the last couple of years I've had this debate in my head.
|
|
|
Post by bmegroove on Dec 11, 2018 13:57:07 GMT -5
Another thing that struck me is Franz's comments about the band and their style of music. It edged up to the border of almost being condescending, but luckily it didn't get there. Instead he was just frankly observing that the "Cheap Trick"/etc. style of guitar driven rock isn't really his thing. I appreciate his candour. This was pretty much his reasons for leaving he stated back in 2010 as well. And he didn't sound any more or less condescending then, at least not in my opinion. I think what he said about "one big idea" was being misread with an emphasis on "one" (as opposed to "numerous ideas"), and it made him look like he bashed his former band for being boring and not very clever. But it makes sense that it was connected to the entire fox/hedgehog image, who doesn't rate one method over another. It simply describes two different types of artists: Those who spend years perfecting one very clear and pure idea, possibly with great results along the way. And those who like to jump from idea to idea, mix them, match the, see what comes out of it. Neihter of them are qualitatively better than the other. It's just different visions, different approaches. But I think it's a fair assumption to make that Franz' has had a saying in how the new songs should sound like, AND that the rest of the band have come to agree more with him now than what they did then. When Craig says in the podcast that Teeth Dreams lacked a piano, he's also sort of saying that they needed to think differently and widen their horizon a little bit. And that's what I love about the new songs: How they capture the soul of "old" Hold Steady, while broadening out the scope, putting more details into the compositions and the arrangments, sounding poppier and (everything's relative) more experimental. Maybe that's one reason why they seem to be functioning better as a band now, that each member have moved a little bit towards each other on the subject of what a rock band like Hold Steady can and should be. That was extremely well written, agreed on all accounts!
|
|
TKalltheTime
Sniffling Indie Kid
Blotto / Blacked Out / Cracked Out / Caved In
Posts: 194
|
Post by TKalltheTime on Dec 11, 2018 21:57:32 GMT -5
Episode 4 was quite the eye roll enducing affair That Slapped Actress thing? That was really weird. The reporter clearly understand what the Gina Rowlands metaphor does in the song, but still go on for minutes about how "sometimes actresses get slapped" is somehow disturbing. I might not be the best judge here (I'm european, and I'm male), but I think it's a stretch to link that line to misogyny or anti feminism in any way. Which they sort of don't, but still sort of do in the podcast. But when they did in the first place, it was a bit lazy not to connect it to Franz' criticism of the lyrics on Teeth Dreams. Do any of you remember that? He criticized Craig for lacking the exact same ability the reporter in the podcast gives Craig credit for doing: Giving female characters depth and agency. I specifically rememer Franz bashing Wait A While, and all those parts about "little girl", the "there's other words than yes"-part and the chours itself. I understand that this might not be the podcast to take a dig at something like that, but when feminism and disturbing lyrics became an issue in the first place, it felt a bit weird that they didn't. To spin a little bit further on that: One of the most interesting parts about the podcast was the way Franz described his departure, and how he feels about being back. Craig isn't all that chatty on the subject, but gives some context too. But I thing it's a bit underplayed how sour the tone in the press actually was. They dwell on the hedgehog/foxes metaphor, who never really felt that harsh to me. But Franz have said other things about his relationship with the rest of the guys as well. I'm just gonna paste in a passage from a 2015 interview here, to give an example on both. Not to diss either Franz or any other member of the band - just as an reminder that the relationship between Franz and the rest of the band might not have been so straight forward as they suggest in the podcast, almost right up untill the 2016 reunion shows. Hope everyone's okay with that. -- I see Bobby (Drake) from time to time – we were the youngest guys in the band and road roommates. They asked me – through Bob, I guess he’s the designated Franz-whisperer – to open for their shows in Toronto a few months ago, but that didn’t seem like a good idea. I went to see them in Toronto last winter when I was living there. I figured, five years had passed, it was time to check back in. It was very cleansing for me – I felt like I got some closure, that I hadn’t been missing out on anything.
I’ve checked out the records. If I was writing reviews of them, I do have some specific criticisms, not as a former member, just as an interested party who knows their work as well as anyone. I think the doubling down on guitars is neither here nor there. I’m not sure you’d find the person who’d say “The real problem with The Hold Steady is there’s just not enough guitars”. It’s important to remember that there were almost as many people who thought keyboards ruined the band as people who missed them when they were gone. I think there was a shift in Craig (Finn)’s lyrics, to their detriment, from relatively neutral, even amused, narration of peoples’ bad behaviour – we’re all glorious fuckups – to dispenser of paternalistic advice and moralistic judgment. I am surprised when I see him getting patted on the back for writing female characters. Sure, Holly (though that’s a pretty familiar romanticization of the old Madonna/whore thing), but especially on the last record there’s an uncomfortable amount of frankly condescending and not a little contradictory (“It’s a big city, there’s a lot of love/you gotta get back out there“) versus “I’m sorry, but there’s other words than yes/why don’t you wait a while?” attitudes toward the women in the songs. It’s a problem. www.godisinthetvzine.co.uk/2015/02/02/interview-franz-nicolay/Yeah right then and there this thing totally fell off a cliff for me. These were people who were supposed to be huge THS fans and they ended up looking like people who have little to know clue about the band, lyrics, context, etc. This was some super reaching with trying to assert and make up some SJW bullshit, for what? The sake of being edgy or trying to be controversial? I couldn't sigh or roll my eyes hard enough at that episode.
|
|
|
Post by muzzleofbees on Dec 12, 2018 6:31:11 GMT -5
That was extremely well written, agreed on all accounts! Wow, thanks! I know I've said it before, but one of my biggest handicap on this site is not being able to discuss in my mother tounge. I have a lot to say about Hold Steady, and often we dive in to the nuances and details around here. Sometimes I feel it's hard to do that in english. But I'm glad it makes sense, haha.
|
|
|
Post by muzzleofbees on Dec 12, 2018 6:36:01 GMT -5
the lyrics in "wait awhile" have always made me wince a little bit. never been a huge fan of the song because of it. I like to think that it's written with the intent that we don't side with the narrator (calling her "little girl" just seems so tone deaf that I have to hope it's intentional), but that might be a stretch and wishful thinking on my part... I think it's pretty safe to say that this comes from a character rather than expressing Craig Finn's opinions. He's obviously the one who wrote the words, but in a world where so many strange stories get told from so many different point of views, it's quite likely that this is a character talking (Charlemagne to Jesse, if we are to believe Skepticalfirst in the magnificent Here Goes thread). And to generalize that a bit: It's werid how people without hesitation accepts that characters in books or in films are expressing views the author/director doesn't hold or share, but if those characters appear in a song, people just assume that it's the singers thoughts and opinions who's expressed. The "I" in a song isn't by default any more personal than the "I" in a novel. Yet, I can see why it creates cognitive dissonans, with all cultural history and tradition in rock music in mind.
|
|
|
Post by doctoracula on Dec 12, 2018 8:21:16 GMT -5
But then I wonder why write from that perspective? What does it add to the story? What do we get from it? I dunno, I might be able to forgive it more if the lyrics also didn’t strike me as so lazy. The man can do so much better than “there’s other words than yes.”
|
|